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Obama in Grand Junction Open Thread

by: Colorado Pols

Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:01:15 AM MDT


"Half of the American people have never read a newspaper. Half never voted for President. One hopes it is the same half."

--Gore Vidal
Colorado Pols :: Obama in Grand Junction Open Thread
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Obama in Grand Junction Open Thread | 82 comments
Ritter video

Gov. Ritter emailed out this charming video regarding health care and Obama's visit.

http://www.youtube.com/Governo...

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  

Ritter demands a Public Option and more healthcare regulation (costs)!
see his ad too
[ Parent ]
Filll us in
on how deregulated healthcare has led to increased access and decreased cost. Can't wait....

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  
[ Parent ]
Its not deregulated
Trial lawyers have all sorts of corruption angles from which to plead.

ps where is tom strickland in this debate .... he was general counsel for  united heathcare group insurance company.

[ Parent ]
Ritter on Meet the Press
Ritter was unimpressive on Meet the Press
[ Parent ]
Presidential weekly address



"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  
see Ritter comment above
10 million go without insurance, not 40 million.

ps Libertad demands if these radical cost increases occur that he has Public Option.

ps2 If Grand Junction works so well obviously you don't need to change existing laws to make it happen elsewhere.

[ Parent ]
The Grand Junction model
(which should be transferred, to the extent possible, far and wide) covers some cost-control and continuity of care problems with the current system, but that's all. And since it's been out there for more than three decades without widespread adoption, what's your evidence doctors and insurance companies will pick it up without some pressure?
[ Parent ]
Oh yeah, Tom Strickland didn't he hire
that dude from South Dakota to stop the spread of this model.
[ Parent ]
Grand Junction works well
For those who can afford it, and full-serve plans, whether from Rocky Mountain, Anthem or whoever, are quite pricey. If you can't afford it, you're out of luck.

Where they do have success is keeping Medicare and Medicaid patients from being re-admitted to hospitals at other rates in the country.

Those are government programs, by the way, Libertad.  

[ Parent ]
The why was Obama out to promote GJ
Is he that bought off by the industry so as to pimp something he doesn't believe in?
[ Parent ]
Have another beer, Taddy.
Or maybe a hot toddy. You'll sleep better.
[ Parent ]
Josh Penry has no shame
I dropped by the trash America festivities at Lincoln Park this morning.  It was really a pathetic event.  The healthcare haters predicted the event would draw 5000.  They were lucky if there was 1000 there.  Sad evidence for their effort, seeing how they brought in out-of-state people to astroturf the park.   I circulated in the crowd taking pictures for the most of the event.  I'd put on my earphones and listen to music when the loony MC, Rick Wagner, was spewing his garbage between speakers.  Speakers who seemed to have failed high school methods of speech making, I might add.  

I did record Josh Penry's three minute rant, such as it was, when he took the stage.  It was the typical Penry caterwauling shit blizzard, with nothing of much interest to anyone.

What is interesting, is that Penry showed what is made of after he left the stage. He did a few minutes in front of the media cameras as I waited to speak with him.  After the media interview was over and Penry was standing by himself, I approached and asked:

"Senator Penry, do you condone these Nazi comparison signs right here," as I pointed to them, not 15 feet away.
Penry's response:  "I'll talk with them about it".

Penry promptly walked to the signs with me in tow.  Once we reached the signs, Penry looked them over, looked at the camera and recorder in my hand and promptly walked straight across the street and hopped into a green SUV, with what I presume was his wife driving.  

After viewing the signs, this scum bag said not one word to the goobers with the signs or to me.  

JOSH PENRY, YOU ARE A LYING CHARLATAN MOUNTEBANK FLIMFLAM MAN!

As big of a failure as Penry's astroturf teabagger's party was, the score now stands at: President Obama- 1, Penry- 0

And I await all of President Obama's home runs at this evening's town hall.

"Is anyone else here tired of the flimflam, mealy-mouthed Republican?"  --Josh Penry

Thank you Western Slope Thought
For going and reporting.

[ Parent ]
Thank you Messers Penry and Maes for standing tall
to confront the failures of Ritter, Hickenlooper, Bennet, and that retired guy from CD3 who brought us overspending, out of control government programs, little personal responsibility, more taxes, more fees, and a HS dropout rate of 50%.


[ Parent ]
are Penry's campaign signs really THAT color?
   He must have someone from the GOP Log Cabin Club doing his design work.
[ Parent ]
Pretty good work, isn't it?

[ Parent ]
Throwing red meat to the base
Be it a Democrat or a Republican - it always feels so tawdry.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!
[ Parent ]
Maybe when they clip those software tax exemptions next spring
they extend a tax obligation to all the services work you bill too.  What will your customers think then?
[ Parent ]
Don't worry - we get taxed
Business property tax & income tax. As to sales tax - we have a grand total of 1 customer in this state so it's not like it would matter.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!
[ Parent ]
So you have Colorado engineers
doing service and consulting work here, (you and they) enjoying the benefits of Colorado, generating revenues and yet you don't charge sales tax on that portion of the product you sell to customers?

[ Parent ]
We don't do service & consulting work
We sell a software program. Because we sell via the internet only, there's no sales tax.

One funny note on this, the City of Boulder told us that even though we don't pay sales tax, we still had to get a sales tax license. Go figure.

ps - I do think there should be sales tax on internet purchases. But it has to be run centrally because having to figure out and then report taxes for every jurisdiction we sell into would be impossible to figure out.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!

[ Parent ]
My customers who sell stuff
charge and pay sales tax on in-state purchases.  They're supposed to.  In order to keep it simple, most of them don't charge city and county sales taxes (that would be a nightmare to keep track of) but they pay them anyway.  They just eat it.

There's no sales tax on purchases across state lines because the "interstate commerce" Constitution says so--at least until Congress gets greedy.

It's not an internet thing, it's an interstate commerce thing.

When I use lots of words, they always form an analysis (and, while producing high volume, also produce high information-density).
--Steve Harvey, 2009

[ Parent ]
Even figuring out jurisdictions can be impossible
When we were setting up the company I did not realize that internet only sales did not have to collect sales tax. So we were trying to find a way to get what taxes were owed based on an address in Colorado.

There was no way to do so (at least 5 years ago). Flat-out no way to determine it. The whole system is set up for retail stores where you know your jurisdiction and who to pay for your physical location.

My hope is they set a single sales tax for internet sales anywhere in the U.S. And at worst, a single tax per state. And then give us a single place to report it for all sales.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!

[ Parent ]
You're supposed to charge them...
It's actually against the law in Colorado to include taxes without separating them from the cost of the item, or to have a "sales tax sale".  Weird, not frequently prosecuted, and not well-known, but true.

As to Internet sales taxes, you're supposed to charge sales tax for any state in which you have a physical presence.  I haven't exactly figured out the jurisdictional issues - I think you charge whatever rate is in effect for the jurisdiction in which you do business.  (Some companies like car dealerships charge sales tax based on your own address - I think that has to do with special laws for cars, though...)  It's a mess.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

[ Parent ]
Hahaha. The clap-track is the same
over and over and over.

For something that was so expensive to make, and least put a little variation in there. It sounds so fake.  

[ Parent ]
I thought we agreed CSB was a legitamte copols abbreviation?
Nice job- thanks.
[ Parent ]
Youtube that stuff!
Sounds hilarious.  

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  
[ Parent ]
thuggary

[ Parent ]
Blah blah blah
You're boring.



"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
A lil Card Check and some outsourcing of health management to the SEIU
and you'll have millions of new members to force even more dues and fees from.
[ Parent ]
teabaggers?
I prefer ragin' caucasians.
[ Parent ]
Personal Resp.

[ Parent ]
Relax
You seem to have a lot of anger towards your fellow countrymen.  
[ Parent ]
RJ, they are angry because the people are asking questions

[ Parent ]
Most are angry,
I believe, because they are people who believe that real discourse is healthy for a democracy, and that actions which derail discourse by shouting others down and orchestrating disruptions of town halls are antithetical to real discourse.

To be blunt, and speaking only for myself, I'm angry because there is nothing more horrifying than seeing ground gained by ignorant, misinformed, disinforming mobs attempting to derail not only dialogue, but, more fundamentally, humanity's gradual progress toward improved political economic institutions.

Human history is, in one very simplistic sense, a struggle between rational people and troglodytes. Neither side likes to see the other advance, one for good reason, and the other quite unreasoning.

You've picked your side, and I've picked mine.

Beep-Beep!

[ Parent ]
For perspective




Nazi Germany had a system of money
Abolish money!

I hear they also breathed oxygen! Through their noses! Abolish noses!

[ Parent ]
The Third Reich
also had something of a military. Is the Tea Party going after that next?
[ Parent ]
They also had guns
so lets abolish all guns.
[ Parent ]
Nazi Germany had an interstate road system
How awkward.  

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" - Nietzsche  
[ Parent ]
a short list
of the things we must jettison to distinguish ourselves from the Nazis:

teeth, hair, eyes, ears, mouths..., okay, all human organs and anatomical features (yeah, including those)..., shoes, shoe laces, the little plastic tips on shoe laces, clothes, zippers, buttons, combs, cars, planes, tooth brushes, soap, shampoo, books, movies, music, musical instruments, singing, speaking, walking, breathing, farting, dancing, gloves, hats, scarves, cosmetics, underwear, roads, paths, bicycles, trains, busses, toilet paper, toilets, chairs, beds, sofas, carpets, stairs, buildings, walls, gardens, parks,  horses, dogs, cats, aquariums...,

and, of course, jack-asses.

Beep-Beep!

[ Parent ]
"the little plastic tips on shoe laces"
The Nazis had "aglets"? I'm going to make sure all my NEW shoes only have Velcro. The Nazis didn't have Velcro...did they?
[ Parent ]
Finally
Nazi Germany had a libertad.  ibid.  

Drinking Liberally in a SquareState
[ Parent ]
Aren't these the same folks
who are constantly SCREAMING that government must come between a doctor and a woman?  Now they are SCREAMING that government shouldn't come between a doctor and a patient.  Their hypocrisy truly knows no bounds.
[ Parent ]
Nazi Germany had women! n/t

[ Parent ]
What Nazi Germany did not have
was a leader like Barack Obama, with the balls to stand up against these propagandists, like Liberloon and Penry.
[ Parent ]
I stood up to a couple of them today
I was in GJ, and drive a truck with an Obama bumper sticker on it. As I walked in to a restaurant, there were two yahoo's standing outside. One of them said, loud enough for me to hear it, "Fucking Obama lover."

I stopped and asked him to repeat himself. He said, "I'm talking to my friend here".

"Well", I said, "You're a liar." There was no further incident, except that I did walk our from the restaurant a minute later to check the truck, and lock the rear tailgate.


"In short, we eat oil" ardy39

[ Parent ]
Heheh
"What Nazi Germany did not have was a leader like Barack Obama"  

Now that's a softball.  

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative." -GKC

[ Parent ]
No, it's a whiffle ball.
No matter how hard you hit it, it just ain't going to fly.

Beep-Beep!
[ Parent ]
Well, you can't expect them to spell German correctly (it's "frei")...
when most Americans can't even spell English all that well, either, I guess.

I'm a Gladney, he's a Gladney,
She's a Gladney, we're a Gladney,
Wouldn't you like to be a Gladney, too?
Be a Gladney. Be Kenneth Gladney.

[ Parent ]
Arby's macht fries
Nazi Germany had roast beef sandwiches!
[ Parent ]
Now I'm really confused.
I thought it was French fries, not German fries.
[ Parent ]
didn't the Republican Congress decree that they were henceforth to be called Freedom Fries in 2003?

[ Parent ]
There's a tradition of that sort of renaming...
Take, for example, the following manifestations of anti-German sentiment in the US during WWI:

In New Orleans, Berlin St. was renamed for General Pershing (head of the American Expeditionary Force), sauerkraut came to be called (by some) "liberty cabbage",[12] German measles became "liberty measles", hamburgers became "liberty sandwiches"[12] and Dachshunds became "liberty pups".[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

[ Parent ]
The worst was renaming the Nazis
as "liberty fascists," which apparently never caught on.
[ Parent ]
Repealed
I believe, in 2006.

"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!"  Lord John Worfin
[ Parent ]
Pommes Frites
be the German words for french fries.  And they do makes some good ones. Currywurst and pommes frites was my main staple while living there.
[ Parent ]
Finally,
something to laugh about in this debate!  Nice one.

"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!"  Lord John Worfin
[ Parent ]
Obama takes on "Deathers"

Obama addresses public option

OH MY GOD

Can you believe that Medicaid called a patient to make sure she was happy with the care she was getting? Oh the humanity!

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank

Just when you think you'll never reach the punch line
it ends. Wow.

Little-known fact: Rene Auberjonois was the voice of Vanity Smurf.  

[ Parent ]
Not to mention
Louis ("Louie") the chef in the little mermaid! What a changeling!

Beep-Beep!
[ Parent ]
Like I told you,
troglodytes come in both blue and red varieties. And some, apparently, are blue on the outside and red on the inside. Wow, what a selection!

Beep-Beep!
[ Parent ]
Couldn't quite make out the end there
is this Scotty D or Scotty M?  Wooops, that was a different thread.
[ Parent ]
Whoa there pardner
I think this guy needs meds more than his mother.

"Good judgement comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgement" - Jim Horning
[ Parent ]
GJ Town Hall eye-witness report
As one of maybe 1200+ people able to fit into the school auditorium, it was very impressive to see how President Obama interacted with the mixed political crowd at the town hall meeting in Grand Junction. He did a good job addressing many of the Palinized claims of granny death squads and such, and it was touching to hear his experiences concerning his grandmother's illness.

One of President Obama's best lines was when he noted that health care detractors are afraid that the government will step in between them and their doctor. He asked the audience if they were satisfied with the present system -- where insurance companies come between them and their doctors.

Those opposed to increased federal health care coverage inside the auditorium were polite in their disagreement and some of their faction got a chance to ask questions and state their opinions (yes, Obama chooses as random.) It was actually a good pro/con discussion overall.

Outside it was the Beatles vs bullhorns. The pro-health care folks were armed with a good sound system and the White Album, while the other side had a tattooed lady with a squeaky bullhorn. Funny how many of the complaints about socializing health care came from those on Medicare.  

Huh?
"Funny how many of the complaints about socializing health care came from those on Medicare."

How is this funny?  They do, after all, presumably have a working knowledge of how "well" it works.  

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative." -GKC

[ Parent ]
They like medicare and don't want the gov't taking it over
These are not people who have a "working knowledge" of much of anything.
[ Parent ]
A "working knowledge" is overrated
You link an opposing politician with an issue than demonize the politician to discredit his issue.  Presto profundo, you defeat your opponents without having to understand any of the intricacies of the issue.  Standard Republican playbook.  

"Obama is a bad guy and because he is a bad guy, his health care reform proposals are also bad".

I think there is a logical fallacy that covers this but it escapes me at the moment.

[ Parent ]
I don't know the name of the fallacy,
but it's a bogus implicit syllogism:

O is a bad guy,
all ideas held by bad guys are wrong,
therefore, all ideas held by O are wrong.

Of course, the primary defect is in the second premise. (I would take issue with the first premise as well, but that's not really necessary for our present purposes). Kinda like the argument that, since the Nazis were evil, everything they ever had or did (e.g., beer, testicles, food, aglets, walks in the woods) must have been evil as well.

If you find the name of the fallacy, please let us know (really).

Beep-Beep!

[ Parent ]
The genetic fallacy
But Obama's from Kenya so it only applies over there.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank

[ Parent ]
Guilt by association of Appeal to Ridicule
Guilt by Association involves rejecting a proposition because Person A supports the proposition and the individual dislikes person A.

Appeal to Ridicule ridicules an issue or individual and the ridicule is suppose to suffice for a valid argument.

http://www.nizkor.org/features...

Personal Attack is also possible.

[ Parent ]
Appeal to ridicule
Seems quite apropos to the current debate.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad
[ Parent ]
Absolutely
It's all that I see on here, in fact.  

Love,
A Teabagger

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative." -GKC

[ Parent ]
You're mistaken yet again.
Most responses to you, mine included, have pointed out the fallacies in your reasoning, which in turn has the effect of ridiculing you. The ridicule is incidental to, rather than essential to, the refutations of your easily debunked "arguments." Your fallacy this time is assuming that the mere presence of something in an argument (ridicule) implies reliance on it to make the argument. By that logic, if every argument on a topic or refuting the arguments of a particular individual happened to contain a typo, you would insist that the arguers are relying on typos to make their point!

Beep-Beep!
[ Parent ]
Oh, I wish that were the case
Please make it so.  It would be wonderful.  We would have real content here, rather than front-paged articles about some 23-year-old kid and his Twitter page.  

I'm pulling for you.  I really am.  

"He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative." -GKC

[ Parent ]
I was talking about both sides actually


"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad
[ Parent ]
I think the genetic fallacy is what you were going for originally
http://www.nizkor.org/features...

A Genetic Fallacy is a line of "reasoning" in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. It is also a line of reasoning in which the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence for the claim or thing. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

The origin of a claim or thing is presented.
The claim is true(or false) or the thing is supported (or discredited).



Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank

[ Parent ]
That's it. n/t


Beep-Beep!
[ Parent ]
Yokel syllogism
1.  Drugs can cause bizzare behavior
2.  There is a drug store near Yokel's house
3.  Therefore, Yokel's delusions are drug induced
[ Parent ]
Obama in Grand Junction Open Thread | 82 comments
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