((as Promised – while this is based on the false premise that this nation has socialized medicine, I do enjoy a carefully-crafted diary. I do hope AP took his grandson fishing, however…) – promoted by SSG_Dan)
A Commentary by American Patriot
Are you for or against socialized medicine in America? By now I think everyone realizes that we already have socialized medicine. Then the question becomes; to what extent will the government control our health care system? Some want more government control, some less. That is your choice. It is your job to decide where you stand on the issue. It is our job to make sure you understand exactly what is going on and what consequences will follow from the health care issue before you make your choice.
Have you noticed the Romney TV ads? Just a week ago, one of them started with Romney’s commitment to repeal Obamacare on his first day in office. Now that same ad has evolved. The repeal of Obamacare has morphed in the ad out of first place into third place. Now Romney is promising to modify Obamacare into a common care sense health care program. And you can read that promise as a promise to install Romneycare. At the same time, you are being bombarded with the idea that you will need to vote for Romney in order to get rid of Obamacare.
What you are watching is the construction of a “lesser of two evils” imperative designed to capture your vote. Either choice you make will lead you to the same destination; government controlled health care to a greater or lesser extent. Big brother is coming through the inevitability of gradualism and he enjoys bipartisan support.
You have watched as both parties have advocated for comprehensive immigration reform (amnesty). Now you’re not going to hear either party call it amnesty but it’s pretty obvious that they’re both fighting over who will get the credit and the Hispanic votes that come with sponsorship. Now none of this has anything to do with what the people want or don’t want. It has much more to do with what will benefit the political parties.
People on both sides of these issues contribute to the coffers of both political parties and both sides vote for what they see as the lesser of two evils choice. What is being subjugated is the will of the people. In essence and effect you’re being asked to choose between two kings, both of which are previously owned by special interest groups and at the same time you’re being denied any other choice.
If neither party represents the will of the people and if you the voter buy into their imperative, (we have to beat the Democrats/we have to beat the Republicans), and with your vote you validate their choices (not yours), the result will be the election of a king who has no accountability to the people. In reality you’re voting to end a government of the people, by the people and for the people because you have no other choice.
There is no one for you to vote for, you can only vote against, and it’s been that way for a very long time because the parties control the caucuses and the primaries and that’s where they eliminate all other choices except their own. When you go to the poll and pull the curtain, the question that should be foremost in your mind is one that was voiced over two hundred years ago by Thomas Jefferson ” The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite.”
“Everyone thinks that they have a hand in electing the candidates from their party. The reality is that about 140 people out of the Thousands of registered party affiliates will have a true voice in the process of selecting the candidate, and they do not have to take into account anything the Thousands of People want!” The above statement (in quotes) is the words of current a Mesa County Republican Vice Chairman Kevin McCarney and they were written in what could have only been a moment of candor.
The statement that follows is a quote from George Washington in his farewell speech to Congress over two hundred years ago and that statement could have been made in what can only be described as a moment of clarity guided by divine providence. His words were and are a warning to the American people that the lesser of two evils choice (however decided), remains a choice for evil.
“However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
- GEORGE WASHINGTON, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796
Today we have the benefit of knowing what our Founding Father’s choice was and make no mistake your grandchildren will hold you to account for the choices you make today, if by those choices they are condemned to live their lives in fear of an all powerful, all seeing federal government and they will know that fear as the definition of slavery. It’s your choice; or is it?
Full story: In The Sure and Certain Hope of a Ressurection of the People
I swear I got the same lecture over dinner last night.
It sounds to me like your Father loves you very much and is trying to offer you wisdom, which is at least as important as education. I have a daughter that I love very much also, but I realize that it takes a lifetime to acquire wisdom and that is an education in itself. Listen to your parents but make your own choices in the knowledge that unconditional love is just that; unconditional.
thanks for putting it up.
Why don’t you write a diary about why you like to read “diaries like this”? Now that would be something I would be very interested in because I would much rather be fly fishing with my Grandson than to be writing about the sad state of our nation.
For me, writing this stuff is not a labor of love but rather one of necessity. I’m frightened every time I post something because I’m not an educated man and a lot of educated people read this site. I’m not afraid of being criticized, but I’m scared to death that I will be the blind hog that managed to find the acorn and I will be proven right, when I want so desperately to be wrong.
but I barely have time to read here and post the usually snarky comments that I do. I think you are right on the money about the R and D battle being a complete peripheral sideshow to what is actually going on with our government these days. They are both on the take, and I too feel our government dosen’t belong to people like you and I anymore.
Your George Washington farewell address quote is gold. Now take your grandson fly fishing ! Or, as it were, spend 15 minutes setting the line up again so he can tangle it up in one. Wash, rinse, repeat.
more patriotic than thou types think the founding fathers supported or believed. Bet you didn’t know George Washington thought having military chaplins was a really lousy idea, the government meddling in soldiers private religious lives and all that. Our early government didn’t bother with Christmas as an official holiday at all. The Puritans banned it as heathen frivolity. And they weren’t anti-tax. Their problem was with taxation without representation but in our system, we the people are the government through our elected representation. We are paying taxes to ourselves to provide for our infrastructure, security, education and general welfare. Words like “welfare”, “the public good” and “the people” weren’t dirty words to the founders. In fact they are all over the documents you “patriots” supposedly hold so dear.
But on to health care. You might be interested in some real health care plans that some real founding fathers, John Adams for one, supported. Probably not (your type usually prefers childish, I cannot tell a lie style mythology) but just in case:
http://voices.washingtonpost.c…
Personally I don’t see what’s so patriotic about having for profit middle men manning death panels, coming between me and my doctor to make my health care decisions, preventing me from even having access to health care if I switch jobs while having any one of many disqualifying pre-existing conditions or just getting too sick to be a source of profit.
And I don’t see what’s so patriotic about insisting on remaining the only modern industrialized country that can’t manage to provide universal health care when all the others not only provide it but provide a higher over all quality with better over all outcomes at half the cost. Is spending way more for way less patriotic now? Is having health crises as the major cause for bankruptcy, including for people with insurance, patriotic? Not sure you really know what “patriotic” means. I think you think it means a particular ideology. It doesn’t.
First thing is making sure that sick kids can get booted off insurance again. Then he’ll need to get on the D9, as I hear he’s going to personally build the Keystone Pipeline. He is going to sign five EOs and unilaterally enact 5 laws; ending the deficit with the stroke of a pen. And sometime in between, he’s going to stand up to China.
Damn, that guy’s amazing! I forget, are we supposed to vote for him, or anoint him?
Oh..oops.
A lesson in the difference between a President’s desires and his ability to get it past the obstruction of the opposing party in Congress.
it’s within the president’s authority and in any event, for two years his party controlled both houses of Congress.
Yes. It would have been easy. But it would have been wrong. In office, faced with the responsibility for defending the free world, Obama made the responsible decision.
But closing Gitmo while prosecuting those interred there was not apparently in his power, given that Congress blocked it. Given the choice between the broken hearing system that had been in place, letting people go who should be prosecuted, and keeping the system in place long enough to get appropriate trials, Obama did the right thing.
not so, at least the first two years.
Obama did stop the waterboarding. but given the choices, he did the right thing keeping gitmo open.
I guess I have to mean most of Congress.
Though I seem to recall it wasn’t an issue until Republicans started to make a stink about our national security being at risk from all of the Gitmo prisoners who would somehow be let loose to roam inside the country.
BTW, he did issue an executive order to close it by Jan 22, 2010, but without funding to hold prisoners domestically and have their trials here in the US, he was forced to essentially rescind the order.
Gitmo doesn’t bother me per se, now that federal court jurisdiction has been established and the torture has stopped.
The situation of franc tireurs (irregular soldiers) has always been legally shaky.
Wars against a terrorist organization are a lot more problematic than those waged against a national army.
though he has been blogging for a long time. AP has a knack for finding Casus Belli in many places.
We disagree on almost everything, but his writing is pretty clear, if sometimes hyperbolic. I try to avoid insulting him, as I don’t have time for the extended warfare that will ensue.
. G. Washington
He could have also mentioned that this same mechanism would divide voters to hate-filled tribal blocs, loudly boosting some false headline issues in order to seduce and mislead the gullible.
In the halls of justice there stands a statue of a Lady. In one hand, a sword; in the other, a balance scale. On one side of that scale rests the power of persuasion. On the other rests the persuasion of power.
Somewhere in between is where partisan politics resides. That is a place of deception (of lies), always trying to tip the scale toward the persuasion of power; toward the sword.
In the halls of justice the Lady wears a blindfold but out here on the street that bitch got eyes and unintended consequences. The scale is moving.
Who’s the “we” you’re referring to when you say “our”?
What are the “consequences” that will follow from having further socialized medicine if we already have socialized medicine? Will people who don’t have health care get health care or not?
Otherwise, I think I understand the notion of rigged systems, I understand noble goals.
The “we” is TEA Party. The consequences of a socialized health care system controlled by the government are minimal as compared to the far reaching consequences of a government that is now empowered by no less than the highest court to levy taxes unrelated to commerce or transactions of any kind by rather as a tool in future programs of behavior modification, re-education of the population for just about any program they choose to use that tool for. Say for instance you chose not to purchase a green car, tax or maybe you don’t like to drink tea, tax or suppose your child decided not to join a paramilitary group such as the boy or girl scouts, tax. Or maybe you eat red meat, tax or maybe you don’t, tax. And of course if you choose not to be a member of the TEA Party that too could be taxed.
Obamacare is just the rabbit for you to focus on. That was brought to you by the Democrats. The tax issue, well that was brought to you by a counterfeit conservative appointed by Bush Jr. Now why do you suppose the Republicans would choose to uphold Obamacare? Maybe they found something useful in it. Be sure and keep your eyes on the rabbit.
It is my Grandson and no, I’ve spent the last three years of my life in the Mesa County political combat zone, dodging bogus criminal charges and other sharp instruments hurled by our local Republican Shill group who presume ownership of the TEA Party absent the values and principles of course.
Exercise my what? I regret to inform you that the right of the people to peacefully assemble and petition their government for redress of grievances got flushed down the toilet when they passed the “trespass bill” (no protest anywhere near any government official that enjoys secret service protection).
Now make a guess which Colorado Republican shill group endorsed and supported Tipton in the last election and while they were at it, anointed him as a TEA Party candidate? You don’t have to guess if he voted for the trespass bill. You can look that up and here’s a clue; the quote from MCRP Vice Chair Kevin McCarney included in my diary could just as easily have been attributed to a current sitting self appointed board member of Western Slope Conservative Alliance. Kevin wears two hats and both of the contain rabbits.
His statements are directly dependent on which hat he happens to be wearing at the time. I seriously doubt if he ever intended for his quote (included in my diary) to ever see daylight after he achieved his position in the Republican Party but then that was my rabbit.
that you are against government controlling people’s reproductive organs?
what you’re talking about is human beings killing their unborn children, then yes, I’m against that and I wonder just how desperate a woman must feel to take that kind of action. If you’re talking about birth control, I think that is the least painful way for our people to solve our finite resources problem. And if you’re talking about one group of people forcing their will or their beliefs on another group, then I’m against that. There is one word that above all others is symbolic of power. That word is “allow”.
The presumption of the power to allow or not allow another human being to fulfill their life as they see fit while barring harm to any other human beings is the epitome of arrogance. Your decision on whether people killing their own young is right or wrong is your decision, not theirs, but understand your approval or disapproval is a moral one. It is the government that decides the legal issue because it presumes the power to do so. Do you?
The legal issue has already been decided and the highest court in the land has decide that it a woman’s choice when to have a child. Can you accept that?
Whether she delays that decision for medical, emotional or financial reasons or decides that being raped by her father is an unholy act that needs to be undone is her choice not yours.
Too bad you don’t have the same passion for helping promote affordable health care like contraception and family planning that will help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country.
obviously produce a hearing deficiency. You asked for my feelings and convictions and you got it. What you’re looking for is a fight that will allow you the opportunity to present someone else’s talking points to which there can be no middle ground. I have no problem accepting the law as the law but respectfully I reserve the right to disagree and I believe you will find in the long run the persuasion of power is self defeating because it is counter-intuitive and inconsistent with free will and independent thinking.
Don’t you ever get tired of going to political meetings with the same people in attendance who are more interested in being seen than finding solutions? Meetings where you sit through hour after hour of the politically ambitious telling you what the problems are ad nauseam? Are you convinced that the solution to the abortion issue lies in the persuasion of power or is it that you just want to force your morality on others?
You have a viewpoint and I respect that. What you don’t have is a convincing argument, at least from my viewpoint. And of course I don’t need one because I am not trying to make you believe as I believe. That would be a fool’s errand, don’t you think?
than another run of the mill Republican trying to pretend he is something different.
You believe that helping poor people obtain affordable health care coverage is socialized medicine but in you really really want government to mandate what a woman can do with her eggs. How is that attitude any different than any other hypocritical Republican who hates government helping little people but wants a nanny state that dictates how women should live?
As far as talking points, I notice you use all the standard buzz words like “Unborn Child” to describe eggs and zygotes and ramble on in no coherent fashion about how anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of independent thought.
My impression of you Another Parrot (AP) is that you’re just another external arranger who desperately wants to rearrange the external world so he can be happy and feels he is the self-righteous victim if his rearranging doesn’t work out. If you are as smart and clever as you think you are then you should look inside and find the reality beyond your petty ego.
I write for my own entertainment not to convince you of anything. You Republicans are so closed minded and self-obsessed that any real discussion of free will and human nature is impossible. You’re neither innovative or new dude with your standard Republican shtick.
I believe the recognized definition of socialized medicine is medical care provided by the government at nominal expense. I pay through the nose for my health care – high monthly premiums, co-pays, and deductibles. I do not know you, but from your comments about your grandson, there is at least the strong possibility that you are on medicare. As you know, medicare is a government program that provides medical care at nominal expense. We do have socialized medicine for some (and maybe you), and they are the ones that are complaining the loudest about reform. Do you understand why is so astounded for a tea partier to carry signs such as “Keep government out of my medicare,” or “Don’t steal from medicare to support socialized medicine.” Are they kidding?
You are right, we already have socialized medicine – for everyone over 65. Now they (you) are the ones complaining the loudest against anything that changes the status quo. Complain about reform as loud and as often as you choose, but you lose all credibility when you complain about socialized medicine while you enjoy your own socialized medicine (which, by the way, I pay for).
You are correct. I am at last currently in the right age bracket but it took a long time to get here. I spent most of my life without any healthcare, let alone insurance. I was a laborer, a miner, a construction worker and after I broke my back I was a janitor so I have some idea of where you’re coming from. The problem I have is not medical care; its government involvement because I’ve been around long enough to know when the government gets involved, what can go wrong will go wrong. Have you heard; Social Security is insolvent?
I’m real sorry that you’re having to work to pay for the older people’s benefits but of course I also had to work to pay for the old people’s benefits. And if the government hadn’t raided the SS fund, it just might be that your money would be your own. I don’t pretend to have all of the answers. You should have caught me when I was about 22 for those and hell now I don’t even know what the questions are but I do know one thing; we’re all going to have to make some really tough choices if we’re going to be able to hold this country together long enough for my Grandson to enjoy the luxury of arguing over partisan politics.
I think maybe if you re-read my diary, you’ll come out with a different understanding that it’s about government overreach and liberty. What will you do without freedom?
You’re writing comes off as a puffed up peacock who is so arrogant that thinks he thinks he is the first person in the world to have discovered the perfect political system that will solve all our problems.
The history of civilizations from the Romans through the Communists and Fascists if filled with earnest people who truly believed that their political system was the only perfect political system and all other systems needed to destroyed so that utopia could be established in their time. In the end, they all failed because of the greed and frailties of human beings.
Better to learn to live free inside than try and force your perfect political system on others. Jesus said “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”. The Jew Victor Frankel learned to live free in a concentration camp. You ought to read his book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” to understand what it means to be a truly free human being because you have no clue what you’re talking about when it comes to personal freedom.
I’m always a little amazed by someone who claims to be of independent thought but holds the belief that everyone else is trying to promote some agenda that they simply cannot ALLOW. Simply put I believe in the people’s right to choose and I have great confidence that when given a choice, the people will make the right choice. I believe in government of the people, by the people and for the people. I am guilty of that agenda.
Freedom is an internal state that is accessible to all people in all times.
Every day we have the choice to either express the eternal human attributes like love, kindness and courage in our daily living or be obsessed with telling other people what to do and how to live. You fall into the latter category my friend with your emphasis on forcing the external world to be what you think it needs to be for you to be happy.
Life and politics will always be messy but the sages through all time have always known that happiness is a state of mind and not an external utopia.
Based on your writings you’ll never be free as long as you cling to the notion that freedom is something that can be forced on others through the dissolution of our political parties. It’s a false premise based on an immature understanding of human nature.
are corporations people?
But neither are unions. Let me just cut to the chase. It is the special interest money that has devalued the individual vote and almost completely removed the people from the electoral process. Our elected officials are no longer accountable to the people but rather to the money of the special interests. And I can’t think of a finer example of that than HB12-1280 (the gambling bill) which was written by an Arapahoe horse race track owner and was fast tracked with the provision that did an end run around the vote of the people affected and could be approved by a vote of two Mesa county commissioners. Oh there was the usual dodging and weaving about job creation but bottom line, your representatives went to work for the special interests.
But I’m getting off subject here. The Republican Party is dependent on corporate special interest money to level the playing field or more appropriately tilt the playing field. Why? Because nationally only 18% of the voting demographic are registered Repubs while 34% of that same demographic are registered Democrats. And the Repubs are going against long odds because they’re selling Republican. 40% of the voting demographic are self described conservatives while 22% are self described liberals. If the Republicans were selling conservative (instead of Repub), they’d we winning almost every election but instead the GOP reacted to that situation by purging conservatives from the party.
You’re in Mesa County, so am I; and we’re just a microcosm of what’s going on nationwide. I hear it from other TEA Party members every day and I know that your side has picked up on this also. There’s not just a split in the Repub vote, there’s a grand canyon developing simply because there is no one in the Repub Party who recognizes that their lesser of two evils choice and their “we have to beat the Dems imperative” has resulted in Independents being the fastest political growing group nationwide. Instead the GOP continues to stick to its strategy of moving to the left in order to win elections. And the boots on the ground reality is; everything they’ve gained on the left they’ve lost on the right. That’s why the special interest money has become a necessity and why the people and conservatives cannot be allowed a choice for fear that they might make one.
We may be on opposite sides of the political spectrum but we’re both in the combat zone in Mesa County so I will leave it up to you? Is mine an accurate assessment of politics in the happy valley? Where we differ is in that I’m praying that someone from the Republican Party might stumble across this site and you’re probably hoping they won’t.
Throwing conservatives out of the GOP in Mesa County? Nope, they’re throwing the moderates out.
that endorsed and supported Scott Tipton in the last election. It was the then president and treasurer of that group along with their spouses that registered a four person Tea Party name with the Sec of State (Western Colorado Tea Party) just a couple days prior to anointing Tipton as a Tea Party candidate. Tipton voted twice to advance NDAA, for the Patriot Act, he voted for the “trespass bill”, and he voted to allow unmanned drone surveillance over US soil (and then there are his “ethics violations?). He had the highest paid staff in Congress (which included Jennifer Bailey and Richard Schoenradt, former pres and treasurer of WSCA) and he voted not to reduce his Franken allowance and there are a bunch of other votes in direct opposition to his conservative constituency.
It was Western Slope Conservative Alliance who defended Mesa County Commissioner Meis when he was caught trying to fix a ticket and you may have noticed they have been strangely quiet since he was caught doing it again in Chaffee County. http://www.nbc11news.com/home/… (see comments). When I say Western Slope Conservative Alliance is a “shill group” for the Republican Party; those aren’t my words; they are a quote from former Republican Gubernatorial candidate Dan Maes’ book “Running Without Cowboy Boots”. And did you know that GJResult.Tea Party was a founding member of the WSCA umbrella group and we resigned our membership because their rank and file members were prohibited in their adopted bylaws from participating in board elections? Their participation was, in fact, removed entirely from Western Slope Conservative Alliance bylaws. That board represents no one except for themselves and do you know how many sitting or former WSCA board members are current Mesa Cty Repub. Central committee members with Linda Gregory just being appointed to serve out the term of Cathy Perceful who was just forced out because of MCRW bylaw change? No, Western Slope Conservative Alliance is not forcing out the moderates; they are forcing out all who oppose them by any means necessary. Do you think it was an accident that Garry Brewer was accused of assault at a recent meeting? Was it coincidental that Marjorie Haun and Jennifer Bailey (WSCA members both) went to the police station to accuse Brewer? And why was that done in the Tea Party name? Do you also think it was an accident that the former Pres of Western Slope Conservative Alliance Jennifer Bailey made a police report accusing a Tea Party leader of theft . If you do, go to Western Slope Conservative Alliance Tea Party (not related) http://wscateaparty.com/ site and read the Pinocchio file. Do you honestly believe that Ms. Bailey forgot that she had made that police report just two days later when she denied it in an email blast? Why not find out the truth for yourself? Check it out?
I know all about this stuff. It’s all you crazy conservatives bickering among yourselves. I think it’s great.
But the fact is: moderate Republicans who know how to govern instead of bathering about simplistic solutions have been forced to irrelevance in the Mesa GOP.
Bicker all you wish about who is the “real” tea party. I don’t give a damn because none of you has any interest in promoting people who are willing to govern.
Have a great time. Knock yourselves out.
So you see what WSCA is doing as an asset? Really? One of the first problems you’re going to run into is defining how WSCA differs from the people that they are replacing and that’s the fly in the ointment, at least for your side because they will recognize you as opposition and if you went where I sent you and checked it out, then you know; with them there are no limits and no boundaries. And if they gain operational control it won’t be politics that you will be playing. And I would caution you that no one can control the outcome. The good news is that you can’t expect that type of politics to last very long. The bad news is; no matter how long it lasts, it will be too long.
But I’m not looking for people who want a fundamental transformation. I’m looking for those that want a sustainable transformation the ones that bought the “audacity of hope” even as just a possibility. What are you looking for?
so you are surprised that several groups of tea baggers are fighting over whom is the most authentic? and you ground your argument in who is registered with SOS? Look, organization is tough hard work and you can almost guarantee that attempts to organize will result in conflict. Over in Mesa it appears to me that NONE of the tea bagging groups are capable of reason, but that appears the case wherever tea baggers hang out because they start with extremely false premises. Taxed Enough Already? So, everything you want from government is being adequately addressed?
Calling Obamacare “government controlled health care” is about what PolitiFact called their “lie of the year”: http://www.politifact.com/trut…
Oh, and saying Obamacare raises the prospect of “slavery” for our grandkids just makes you sound like an idiot at best.
That’s why they call them opinions. At least mine belongs to me. The slavery factor is at 16 trillion and rising but maybe you think another entitlement program won’t add to that. You know what they say about repeating the same actions in the hope of a different outcome? No doubt you’re right, Romney will win the nomination and I’ve got a bumper sticker that addresses that; it’s half red and half blue and it reads “A BR/O” which is the acronym for Anybody But Romney/ Obama. Try to understand, I’m conservative, not Republican. Just try to think of me as the polar opposite of Chief Justice Roberts.
Here’s a thought for you; if the Republican or Democrat Parties were representing the conservative or liberal viewpoint; there would have been no need for the TEA Party or the Occupy movement.
But thank you for your time in reading my diary and I’m glad it made an impression on you. Maybe you’ll think about it again sometime. Have a good night.
Sorry, gotta stand up and say something here.
You might believe that private insurance or even pay-as-you-go medicine is better than government health care, but you’re not entitled to the seemingly everyday lie that governments only suck in money with no return.
Money that goes to the government is spent just like any other monetary payment. The government employs workers, who spend money back in the private sector (and contribute their own share to the public sector). It buys materials and services from private sector businesses, which money again is spent on employees who in turn spend it, circulating cash.
The government’s debt is largely one of our own doing, however unpopular that thought might be. We ask it to build roads, allow it to invade nations, hope that it holds us up when we fall and no-one else is there to pick us up, and pay it to help fund our children’s education. And then, when the bills come due, we complain that we’re paying too much – so rather than paying the bill we racked up, we let the government that we support and are so proud of when it represents our country as a whole lapse in to debt.
Are our politicians sometimes bought and corrupt? Yes. Are the bureaucrats they legislated in to being also sometimes bought and corrupt? Yes. And do they come up with bad and/or inefficient ideas and systems? Yes. But the same goes for private enterprise, and unions, and charities, and every other form of organization, too. Drowning government in the bathtub won’t save us.
I would submit to you that Obamacare is what it is largely because private corporate interests have so much influence over our government right now that they could alter it into that shape. Absent Obamacare, things wouldn’t have been better; they would have been worse, and without the ability of the citizens to affect it in the future. To me, the ACA is an imperfect start toward improving a highly broken system.
Reclaiming the system has to begin, IMHO, by reclaiming our political expenditure controls. Real citizens should be the only ones paying in to our election system, and then only in relatively equal amounts. If a corporation is represented by thousands of shareholders and employees, then let those thousands contribute for the benefit of the corporation if it is in their interests. If those thousands of employees are against the corporate policies, let them contribute towards a system of reform. Along the way, if we can make it accountable for an organization to collect those funds to spend on the campaign (be it a corporate election campaign fund or a union political committee), so much the better. But allowing a relative few to lean on the scales of an election as heavily as we’re seeing these days is not democracy, it’s thinly disguised plutocracy.
I agree with you in that I too would like to know if Obamacare will turn out well. But the fact is we don’t know. No doubt the Repubs will blame it for bankrupting the nation and the Dems will lament that Repubs created circumstances that made Obamacare untenable.
Now that’s exactly why the few of us that are not completely brainwashed by partisan politics need to start talking to each other, not because either side has the answers; the truth is we don’t. But because the only way we’re ever going to find a sustainable solution is to try to take the politics out of it and reach that conclusion by mutual consent. And I realize that we have just about as good a chance as a snowball in hell but that won’t stop me from trying and I hope it won’t stop you.
The TEA Party I am a rank and file member of is fighting very hard not to take power or to force our will on anyone but rather to make our whole country sustainable by consent. The gov gets the money it spends from the people and the government has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are incapable of living within their means. They use the people’s money to bribe the people and to obtain their vote because we all want stuff. And now our Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren will be paying for our stuff; for our lack of willpower.
The occupy wall street movement recognizes that predatory lending exists. We all need to recognize that predatory government exists and it is totally out of control.
Just for saying this, we are under fire from both sides. There are people in my home town who are desperate to silence/destroy us. They have built their political future on our opposition to one another and we have been warned not to talk to you.
We don’t expect you to agree with us but what you should recognize is that we had the courage to take that step because we believe that it will take all the people working together to get us out of this mess we’re in. There is common ground but only if we make the effort to find it.
in removing excessive funding from the election system, then it’s a start. Keep it at the issue level and yes, disparate groups can work together towards a good end.
“Our side”, if you’ll split things up that way, isn’t so much warned against talking to anyone, but there is an obvious ideological difference between the ultra-libertarian TEA Party folks and the simply cautious OWS and Progressive movements. One side believes that government itself isn’t the problem, but rather a tool that serves the wielder for better or worse; the other side (from what seems to come out of it) sees it as The One Ring, too powerful for anyone to wield.
Asking the two groups to join together to fight the system assumes that eventually we win, and one of the two groups winds up leading… That doesn’t generally turn out well when the groups are otherwise opposed to each other – so you’ll forgive the lack of aisle-crossing from the left to the TEA side of the force.
The lack of aisle crossing is not something to be forgiven; it’s something to be expected as is the dance that follows. Somewhere in the process, the seed of trust begins to germinate, and if there was any chance of success in the first place, then a new found wisdom and the enthusiasm created by belonging to something larger than oneself; the will of the whole people can satisfy the need for treachery.
The important thing is that representation from both sides recognizes the importance of what is being built and they must have the respect and confidence of those that sent them. It all hinges on the contagion of trust. That’s why politicians can’t do it and if we wait for them to do it, it will never be done. Our time has already begun. We’re on the clock. Your move.
I don’t trust an organization that has largely been duped by the GOP mainstream into thinking they’re a new independent movement.
I’ll work with anyone on a specific issue, but if the cost is vaulting some group that I highly disagree with in to power on a partial truth, it had better be a whopper of an issue and the group easy to oust in the next election with minimal damage in the middle.
Sure the genesis of the TEA Parties was the GOP. That happened to us along with the offers to man the sign in tables and use GOP sign in sheets. And then came the logistical help. ”I know this DJ who has a sound system and he’s really good. You want me to see if I can work a deal with him?” ”And oh, BTW, I have a list here of GOP speakers. What do you mean non-partisan?” ”Well then what are you going to do for a sound system?” Yeah, it started even before the first TEA Parties. ”Then came the ‘we formed an umbrella group to represent the conservative voice and we want your Tea Party to be founding members of this umbrella group. Elections, we ain’t got no elections, we don’t have to show you no stinking elections. Fine, we didn’t need you tea baggers anyway. All we really wanted was your database and we even offered to help gather that but nooooo, you had to use your own sign in sheets and then you wouldn’t give them to us because you’re not team players. And who was the idiot that promised the people that their contact info wouldn’t be shared with any other group except the organizer and sponsor GJResult.Tea Party; in writing on the sign in sheets? What could he have been thinking? Anybody can be Tea Party, you don’t own the Tea Party and besides we can use it to get our anointed candidates elected. Conservative voice? Well that promise was just some people talking. You naГЇve tea baggers have no idea what you’re up against; this is scorched earth politics. The people, working together to take your country back? Hell the voters wouldn’t care even if they knew who took their country away from them. Well, just go ahead and go.
You’ll be back when the liberals kick your butt. The people like the system they have now. They don’t have to do anything; just vote the way we tell them to vote and after that, just pay for it; you know, like they hire a yard man or a personal trainer or an investment advisor. ”
“Say what? You mow your own lawn and you don’t need to work out at the gym to lose weight. OH no, you don’t work for someone do you? Well I could see why you don’t need an investment advisor. You probably wouldn’t fit in around here anyway. My God, I can only imagine what it would be like to have to caucus with you tea baggers. Dismissed!”
Phoenix Rising, is that candid enough for you? I certainly hope so because it’s the truth.
The TEA Party did actually start prior to GOP and corporate backing, IIRC. But it didn’t get much attention until FOX, Glen Beck, and the Koch brothers picked up on it. And then of course along came Dick Armey, and all of the other GOP bigwigs who pretended to be sick of the same-old, same-old in order to start a new movement to fuel their GOP candidacies.
I’ve met a few TEA types who are truly independent of the GOP. On the whole I think they’re a more rational lot than the ones still pining over Sarah Palin’s – I mean, John McCain’s – loss in 2008. As a whole, though, the TEA Party has been used and tossed to the side. To build it up you’re going to have to work at the edges – issues, local candidates, maybe act as spoiler in a larger race or three to build some cred. As you note, the Grumpy Oil Patriarchs won’t be letting you in to their inner circle any time soon.
Progressives don’t have quite that problem; we can actually infiltrate the Democratic Party at some level – and get representatives who aren’t completely bought. But it doesn’t work for every district; for the most part, we’re cut out of a real majority, too.
Pick an issue where we can agree. Start an issue-based movement that unites more than just core TEA partiers and we can probably scare enough reps in the same way the current Grover Norquist anti-tax pledge has scared elected GOP officials.
First, let me say that our membership has not declined. Actually it’s grown, although the Western Slope Conservative Alliance uses that assertion at every opportunity. That’s what they try to do; diminish and demean. They actually built their organization from the contact info they received on their sign in sheets when we were advertising their meetings and events because we actually believed they were trying to form a conservative umbrella group.
And yes, I agree, issues are the way to go. Find common ground. Support Independent candidates that we can agree on and of course we will support conservative candidates regardless of affiliation. That’s a start, but once again I am just a rank and file member of my TEA Party and of course I really don’t know what group I’m talking to. Do you have an organization that would be willing to consider that first step? If so, could you take it to your board and I will take it to our TEA Party board. We can decide on what issue to start with. And what candidates we can mutually support.
I know we have a great many problems to solve and I know we don’t have a lot of time, so let’s keep it simple; one step at a time. None of our board members are politically ambitious. None of them are currently running for elected office. And the one thing that we have learned is that politics corrupts; absolutely, and yet to a certain extent, you have to go there even if it is just to oppose those candidates or elected officials who have shown an utter disregard for the people.
If you’re interested and have an organization you can contact me (americanpatriot) by joining GJResult.Tea Party @ (http://gjresult.com/forum/index.php )under your screen name and I will facilitate your application and then contact me using our private message feature. If you have any difficulty, I will have our administrator standing by to help. Let’s hammer this thing out. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I will be standing by.
Sure the genesis of the TEA Parties was the GOP. That happened to us along with the offers to man the sign in tables and use GOP sign in sheets. And then came the logistical help. ”I know this DJ who has a sound system and he’s really good. You want me to see if I can work a deal with him?” ”And oh, BTW, I have a list here of GOP speakers. What do you mean non-partisan?” ”Well then what are you going to do for a sound system?” Yeah, it started even before the first TEA Parties. ”Then came the ‘we formed an umbrella group to represent the conservative voice and we want your Tea Party to be founding members of this umbrella group. Elections, we ain’t got no elections, we don’t have to show you no stinking elections. Fine, we didn’t need you tea baggers anyway. All we really wanted was your database and we even offered to help gather that but nooooo, you had to use your own sign in sheets and then you wouldn’t give them to us because you’re not team players. And who was the idiot that promised the people that their contact info wouldn’t be shared with any other group except the organizer and sponsor GJResult.Tea Party; in writing on the sign in sheets? What could he have been thinking? Anybody can be Tea Party, you don’t own the Tea Party and besides we can use it to get our anointed candidates elected. Conservative voice? Well that promise was just some people talking. You naГЇve tea baggers have no idea what you’re up against; this is scorched earth politics. The people, working together to take your country back? Hell the voters wouldn’t care even if they knew who took their country away from them. Well, just go ahead and go.
You’ll be back when the liberals kick your butt. The people like the system they have now. They don’t have to do anything; just vote the way we tell them to vote and after that, just pay for it; you know, like they hire a yard man or a personal trainer or an investment advisor. ”
“Say what? You mow your own lawn and you don’t need to work out at the gym to lose weight. OH no, you don’t work for someone do you? Well I could see why you don’t need an investment advisor. You probably wouldn’t fit in around here anyway. My God, I can only imagine what it would be like to have to caucus with you tea baggers. Dismissed!”
Phoenix Rising, is that candid enough for you? I certainly hope so because it’s the truth.
…..even if I disagree with most of your premises and beliefs. You write well and your responses are measured. You are the type of rightie that, as I just told a friend, often resides here at Pols and makes for good dialogue.
As a lifelong FDR type Democrat, I’ll not write a book in response, but limit myself to one topic, health care.
When our nation was founded, health care consisted of bleeding, setting bones, and watching women die in childbirth. If the local doctor/barber gave you a bill, it was payable, either because it was modest, or you could barter a chicken for it.
Fast forward to the Civil War, and the belief that we, the governing and the governed, need to take care of our vets. The start of that oh-so-nasty socialized medicine. (In fact, the VA and military medicine is THE definition of socialized medicine: doctors on the payroll at a salary, drug prices negotiated and purchased in bulk.)
Fast forward to WWII, and the carrot defense employers held out to get workers on board became our private for-profit HC system, mostly paid for by employers. (Many who made their money from the government directly.) Except, possibly, for Kaiser Permanente, Mr. Kaiser building his own system for shipyard and steel workers.
Fast forward to the present. With the intent of providing for “the general welfare,” Congress passed Medicare and Medicaid laws. Imperfect? You bet.
LIke you, I was w/o health care for a huge part of my working life. Not fun, even for a healthy and not accident prone guy. Like you, I’m now on Medicare. Not perfect, but a damned sight better than my previous delivery system: an indigent care clinic.
There is no country in the world that moved to some form of universal health care system that was so disillusioned that they slappeed themselves on the forehead and said, “Damn! We should try that American system.” Several, Germany and Switzerland that I know of, use private insurers…..just like Romney/Obamacare.
Ideology (SEE: Tea Party) is just like religion. The world view is a certain way and everything needs to fit, regardless of facts or empirical evidence. The empirical evidence is that our health care system has been worse than many third world countries. What’s wrong with making it work for almost all of us, most of the time?
BTW, I find “American Patriot” sort of finger in the mouth gagging. Puh-leaze…. Patriotism comes in many stripes, first of all. Second of all, I find the concept quite tribal, us/them, and diversionary from the conversations we need to have. How about, “American Thinker,” or something? You DO think and you do express yourself well. No need to wrap yourself in the flag (“The last refuge of scoundrels.”)
And I agree with a good part of what you have to say. Ask yourself why a person that is in the age bracket to benefit from the various entitlements would be opposed to most of those entitlements? What the government taketh away in our youth is returned in our old age with the government keeping the interest that is accrued in the interim. And one thing has become painfully obvious; the government is running out of other people’s money. Also obvious is the fact that if we do not take corrective action and maybe even if we do, the entitlement pyramid scheme along with the nation built by the people’s blood, sweat and tears will soon come crashing down.
The overview that I get from your comment is that you believe only the government is powerful enough to take on the special interests. Perhaps you are correct, but there is another way and that is to remove the government from between you and your Dr. It’s just a fact of life that when people spend their own money, they’re much more careful how they spend it. And that is when health care costs come down. That’s when $5 cotton balls and $15 band-aids become untenable for the heathcare industry, as they are now untenable for the people.
I believe that the government is the problem and it will be up to the people to furnish the solutions. And the first step in doing that is for us to talk to each other. There are many who don’t want that to happen.
Their government power is dependent on us being at each other’s throats. How is that working out for your side, for my side, or for our side?
Just as an aside, my screen name is not intended to be exclusionary or arrogant. It was given to me by a member of the Fabian Society named E. Michael Ervin (RIP) as a result of a mutual decision to sit down and talk to one another. But I believe the screen name American Patriot actually belongs to him or perhaps to all such men who are willing to talk about the UNITED States of America.
If I go to a clinic (not an indigent clinic, but somewhere where they know I have money to pay), I still pay $125 or so for a visit, not really subject to negotiation.
And if I were to ask for cancer treatment absent insurance, my bill would still be hundreds of thousands of dollars in medicine and/or radiological treatments.
Now, sure, I suppose we could overturn the system and see how that shakes out, but unless you’re contemplating an armed revolution against Big Pharma and the for-profit hospital system, I’m guessing it won’t end well and many people would die as a result.
who have commented to my diary. Thank you very much and if you would like to see for yourself exactly what kind of politics is practiced in Mesa County, and the caliber of some of our elected officials go to: http://www.gjsentinel.com/news http articlesmeis-rebuffed-again-over-ticket and check out the comments under Printed letters, July 3, 2012 http:/www.gjsentinel.com/opinion/articles/printed-letters-july-3-2012 also where according to Mesa County Repub vice chair Kevin McCarney’s comment at that site, things have been this way for 136 years.
He’s apparently quite a bit older than I thought but no doubt we should be able to subtract his years in training for Chicago style politics in Chicago and attending a Jesuit university in St Louis as well Hillcrest High School in New York. So all together, I’m figuring about maybe eight years in the Grand Valley. Lucky guy. I’m a native.
You can also go to http:www.wscateaparty.com for more examples of Grand Valley politics, which is in no way related to Western Slope Conservative Alliance where Mr. McCarney is a self appointed board member and who recently sent out an email blast to Republican and wsca members publishing the home address of GJDaily Sentinel columnist Jim Spehar because he wrote an opinion which the Western Slope Conservative Alliance didn’t like calling them a “tin-foil hat” group. These are the kind of people that give TEA Party people a bad name. He previously passed the word that no one from our TEA Party group (GJResult.Tea Party) should get caught posting on liberal websites or else and now you know what the or else is; at least so far. I am patiently waiting for him to post my home address and phone number along with more fliers in my neighborhood accusing me of being a child molester. You’ve just got to love this guy. And to think he represents the Mesa County Republican Party. Well now that just says it all, doesn’t it?
Where do you propose that we go from here in healthcare?
It seems pretty apparent to me anyway that private for-profit insurance isn’t working well for us, either as individuals or for the country and its economy. And without insurance (even sometimes with insurance), today’s expensive medicinal practices bankrupt many many families yearly.
What is the answer to controlling costs, if buying insurance is dragging us all down and being in control of your own healthcare finances can bankrupt you while still leaving you without the healthcare you need?
I think there are many reasons to gripe at the system, but before I go out chopping at cherry trees I’d like to know that doing so will have a positive impact.
I’ll give you my answer. They are the same thing. The assertion that the People’s will is being subverted by political parties and special interest groups is simply wrong. What subverts the will of the People is the People’s unwillingness to participate in our self-governed Republic. Additionally, 2/3rds of the voting public affiliates with one of the two major parties. That leaves a super-minority of voters that do not have a say in who the names are on the ballot. And it’s sad but true that a great number of those 1/3 unaffiliated voters simply do not care enough to want a say in what their election choices are.
Political parties and special interest groups are in essence the same thing. It is a recognition of one or more similar interests among a group of individuals who see the political benefit of acting as a single entity. It’s the same principal that gave birth to Republicans, Democrats, labor unions, the Chamber of Commerce, and your very own special interest group the Tea Party. These are natural elements of a government and society that is founded on democratic principles.
George Washington may have lambasted the idea of political parties when leaving office, but he was not free from them while serving in office. While he didn’t officially affiliate with any party, he very clearly leaned toward the Federalists and used their political capital to achieve his agenda as President. The most notable example would be the design of the federal financial system led by Alexander Hamilton, one of the most prominent Federalists. I find his famous quote somewhat hypocritical, but he’s divine in our country so he can’t possibly be wrong.
you believe affiliation and choice are synonymous. The truth is; they are not. And that’s why so many Americans are not participating or seeking affiliations other than the two main parties whose efforts only present today in the form of partisan gridlock. But of course you’re entitled to your choice just as we are entitled to ours and that is what makes the system work.
The only problem is the system is not working for the average American while it is working very well for the party bosses. Think of it as the people making a few adjustments. You see they work for us; we don’t work for them. And I think you’ll agree they’re not exactly doing a top notch job managing this nation. But I don’t know; maybe the system is working well for you?
Since John Adams became our second President, we have been a nation of only two major parties at a time. It’s a natural characteristic of our system of government. There has always been partisan gridlock. Hell, in 1995 the government shutdown because of partisan gridlock. In 1861, partisan gridlock led to the Civil War. What we are experiencing now may seem bad, but it’s no where near unprecedented.
Affiliation doesn’t require that you fit into a defined mold. Each party has many factions within it. Those parties hold primaries in which the various factions get to put a like-minded candidate up to a vote. If you don’t like your choices you can either run for office yourself or look to the other party for more choices. If anyone should understand this it is the Tea Party. This is exactly what you’ve all done within the Republican Party. If your concern is with “party bosses” then don’t forget that those party bosses are also elected democratically. Run to be an officer in your county or state party if you don’t like the current leadership.
The reason unaffiliated voters feel like they aren’t represented in government is because they fail to understand the concept of power in numbers. Third parties are never successful because unless you can get +50% of the seats available, some other group of individuals will. As long as our elected officials are asked to either vote yes or no on policies and majority rule wins, the political battle will forever come down between those who vote yes and those who vote no – thus, a two party system.
But, I’d love to hear your alternative that doesn’t inevitably come down to two sides in some shape or form.
Or are we just going to continue to let him look like a serious dumbass?
When I retyped it, I must have hit the S twice. Too funny. I am sure you never make typos Ralphie.
Instead of a double R, I hit double s twice
Dumb mistake but it happens. I have it posted at GJResult.Tea Party and it is correct there and at Western Slope Conservative Alliance Tea Party site and it is correct there. Just goofed.
Sorry
except, of course, the perfect people who post here… :). You know who you are.