Thursday Open Thread

39
  by: Colorado Pols Thu September 20, 2012 at 3:25 PM MDT

“It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.”

–Henry David Thoreau


Full story: Thursday Open Thread

39 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. parsingreality says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 3:40 PM MDT

    While Obama seems to have lost a tad, ‘scuse me, a touch of bump, he is being given 306 electoral votes to Rmoney’s 233.  Wipe out!  Also, a 75% chance of winning.  Let me do the math for you intellectually challenged knee jerkers: that’s a 3:1 likelihood. Wipe out!

    Huffpo puts the electoral college at 317:191.  I remember a surfer song when I was a kid.  What was the title?????  Hmmm…..Oh yeah!  Wipe out!

  2. Barron X says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 4:21 PM MDT

    Obama doesn’t say, but I think folks are still dying there,

    and for what ?

    He is only able to push every thing past the election because of the lack of any real opposition. Republicans support the war effort and the anti-war protestors have proven to be frauds, more pro-Democratic party than anti-war.

    http://blogs.phillymag.com/the…  

    • ajb says:
      Thu September 20, 2012 at 5:58 PM MDT
      • Set a timeline for withdrawal? check
      • Sticking to that timeline? check
      • Unable to satisfy some critics, no matter what he does? check
      • Barron X says:
        Thu September 20, 2012 at 8:28 PM MDT

        setting a deadline unrelated to anything but kicking the can down the street so that the senseless deaths of soldiers don’t affect the election,

        and being unable to adapt to events on the ground,

        those are minuses, right ?

        Why are soldiers still dying there ?  How does that benefit us ?  

        • AristotleAristotle says:
          Thu September 20, 2012 at 8:39 PM MDT

          How would it benefit us to leave?

          Yes, our troops would stop dying. That’s good. But what would happen in Afghanistan? If the answer is “worse chaos,” that raises the question of how those in that region would react. Would they try to take advantage somehow? Would it become a haven for Muslim extremists again? Would that aid them in reasserting themselves?

          I know that hoping to build democracy, as this is sometimes billed, isn’t a whole lot more than a pipe dream. But before we talk about unilaterally pulling out, we need to be assured that we’re having no positive effect by being there, so that we know that leaving won’t mean potentially allowing things to deteriorate further. Especially if it might mean that we would have to get involved all over again.

          I will end by admitting that I am very much not up to speed on Afghanistan, so it’s possible that my above concerns are ill-informed and/or naive. But I supported the actions we took against the Taliban and al Quada there, and I believe we have a moral obligation to leave their country in better shape than when we arrived.

          • Craig says:
            Fri September 21, 2012 at 1:07 AM MDT

            The answer is that we will leave both these countries in worse shape than when we went in and we will leave ourselves with a much worse position. The missions in Iraq and Afghanistan have been flawed from the beginning because no one ever thought about what our mission was or whether we would be better off, having gone.  Bush blew the critical part of this by letting Bin Laden and much of the leadership of al Queda escape at Tora Bora.  But what was the rest of the mission and will we be better off?  I think the question of whether we will be better off is becoming cleared by the with the events in the Middle East.  We will be worse off because we have royally pissed off the Iraqi and Afghastani people who are now just waiting until they can overthrow these puppet governments and put Iran (in the case of Iraq) and the Taliban (in the case of Afghanistan)back in power only with a population which is much more united in its hatred of the US than it was before.  The Iraqui’s are already thumbing their nose at us and taking positions contrary to US policy.  The Afghans, well the police that we are training that are supposed to control the country after we are gone, are killing out people by the hundreds.  That’s why we should get out.  We can only do more harm to ourselves.

            • GalapagoLarryGalapagoLarry says:
              Fri September 21, 2012 at 6:00 AM MDT

               

              …we will leave both these countries in worse shape than when we went in and we will leave ourselves with a much worse position.

              The insider atrocities are becoming ever more frequent and impossible to ignore.

              I hope Karzai pulls another ridiculous anti-NATO rant and gives Obama the excuse he’s looking for to pull the plug. Among the squabbling warlords and Pakistan interference, it’ll be decades before another country can find someone in Afghanistan to deal with on commercial mineral extraction — the only reason we have to tough it out. We can always get the rare earths, etc, like we get our opium, through intermediaries.

              • DaftPunkDaftPunk says:
                Fri September 21, 2012 at 6:45 AM MDT

                China will kill us.  Unless we have a puppet installed and favorable contracts guaranteed, with a security environment to back them up, they have the inside line on Afghanistan’s mineral wealth.  Of course that’s impossible, but they will prosper in anything short of Taliban-like primitiveness.

                It’s ironic that the one thing Afghanistan is in dire need of is the thing Republicans hate more than anything and can’t provide, good government.

                • CaninesCanines says:
                  Mon September 24, 2012 at 7:30 PM MDT

                  http://www.globalpost.com/disp…

                  China and Afghanistan signed several security and economic agreements as top Chinese security official Zhou Yongkang visited Kabul this weekend…

                  Zhou met with President Hamid Karzai on Saturday and said China “will actively participate in Afghanistan’s reconstruction,” according to Bloomberg…

                  The state-owned company China Metallurgical Group operates a $3 billion copper mine in the eastern Logar province, Reuters said. The mine has been hit by rocket attacks and raids from insurgent groups…

                  One of the agreements also involves 300 Afghan police officers being sent to China for training, according to the BBC, which cited an Afghan foreign ministry official.

              • Gray in Mountains says:
                Fri September 21, 2012 at 6:10 PM MDT

                probably got a broker seeking an estate in Paris or Texas

          • Barron X says:
            Fri September 21, 2012 at 3:41 PM MDT

            As I see it, A’stan is back to the anarchy/ civil war of 1992-96, between the fall of Najibullah and the Taliban taking Kabul.  

            As in ’93-94, everybody but the Pushtuns have allied together (Northern Alliance) to oppose the plurality Pushtuns.  

            What the WaPo and NYT call the “Afghan National Army” and “Afghan National Police” are not really national.  They are commanded by, and 85-90% manned by, Tadjiks, Hazara, Uzbeks, etc.  

            To the Pushtuns, the ANA and ANP are yet another foreign military, looking to take over the occupation of Pushtun areas from the US (NATO.)  

            This “Northern Alliance” has expanded incrementally.  

            It now includes the Popalzai tribe of Pushtuns.  

            Lucky.

            Because that’s Hamid Karzai’s tribe.  

            The so-called Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (GIRoA) is run by the Northern Alliance.  

            It was installed by the US, and our military is there to prop them up until the Pushtuns relent and accept foreign occupation by their traditional enemies.  

            Don’t hold your breath.  

            Our media keep acting like the Taliban is this extremist religious organization from somewhere else.

            As I see it, they are like the “neighborhood watch” for the Pushtuns.  Their extremism is almost mainstream in their local context.  

            So, who is doing those green-on-blue attacks ?  

            A few years ago, the USA discovered that there were no Pushtuns (45% of the population) in the ANA and ANP.  

            The US ordered Karzai to integrate a token number of Pushtuns at the lowest levels.  

            Whether these Pushtuns who are conducting these attacks are “Taliban infiltrators” or just ordinary Pushtuns is just a matter of semantics.  

            ……..  

            That’s my frame of reference.  

            When I was in SF, we had a mission called “Internal Defense and Development.”

            The idea was not for US Green Berets to crush an insurrection/ insurgency, but to teach our ally/ tin pot dictator how to crush it himself.  

            One A Team, 12 men, trains a Brigade (3,000 indigenous.)  

            Well, that’s not the Petraeus update, rebranded “Counterinsurgency.”

            Under uncle Dave, the US does the fighting, since we can’t trust the tin pot dictator’s troops to do the job.

            Meanwhile, INL (through contractors like PAE and MPRI) trains the Police, and more contractors are paid by DoD to train the Army.  

            INL is the DOS wanna-be version of DEA.  

            Afghan soldiers and police complete that training before they go out on those used-to-be joint patrols with our guys.  

            Those joint patrols that were just suspended, methinks until after the election, are not really training.  Those are hot missions, with the US in charge.  

            using that business model, no units ever got to be mission-capable, except for the elite Counterterrorism police (best darn unit in Afghan forces.)  

        • ajb says:
          Thu September 20, 2012 at 8:49 PM MDT

          But we both know that a quick withdrawal, especially now, would be trumpeted as retreat and defeat by critics at home and enemies abroad.

          My hope is that plans have been made to accelerate the withdrawal, and are being quietly implemented without announcement or fanfare.

  3. ClubTwittyClubTwitty says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 6:00 PM MDT

    Get your RMoney stock @ $3.05 /share

    http://www.intrade.com/v4/mark…

    Hey TeamRomney supporters! Here’s your chance to 1) become rich and 2) earn forever bragging rights atCO Pols!

    I recommend that you liquidate all your worldy assets and invest in Rmoney stock today!

    (PS-I have some oil shale stock I might sell you too.  Call me).  

  4. ajb says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 7:19 PM MDT

    The widely reported surge in tens of thousands of new followers for @mittromney from 21 July – which provoked commentary and suspicion – appeared to have been purchased from a dealer, it said: “We believe most of these recent followers of Romney are not from a general Twitter population but most likely from a paid Twitter follower service.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…

  5. ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 7:24 PM MDT

    Bad day to be an American. We live in a country where a party supported by nearly half of electors cannot muster up a better candidate than Mitt Romney.

    I’d be depressed, if I weren’t too cheerful about the fact that I have a new nephew.

  6. CaninesCanines says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 7:41 PM MDT

    Hat tip to Westword:

    http://blogs.westword.com/late…

    …it’s hilarious, featuring a face-off between Obama, Romney and the Jolly Green Pot Giant, plus a boozy cameo by John Hickenlooper.

  7. Diogenesdemar says:
    Thu September 20, 2012 at 8:15 PM MDT

    or someone you know . . . can use — I hope.

    A Little-Known Benefit for Aging Veterans

    Here’s a riddle: When is a government benefit that pays for caregivers, assisted living and a nursing home not a benefit? When hardly any people know they’re entitled to it.

    That seems to be the story with a Department of Veterans Affairs benefit called the Aid and Attendance and Housebound Improved Pension benefit, known as A&A, which can cover the costs of caregivers in the home (including sons and daughters who are paid to be caregivers, though not spouses) or be used for assisted living or a nursing home.

    The benefit is not insignificant: up to $2,019 monthly for a veteran and spouse, and up to $1,094 for the widow of a veteran

    .

    http://nyti.ms/RsmdoI

    • JFrackenlooper says:
      Thu September 20, 2012 at 9:10 PM MDT

      We have rules for a reason.  And I make them.

      If we allow local elected officials to worry about the school children and such total anarchy will ensue.  Cannibalism cannot be far behind should Longmont ban fracking.

      http://www.bizjournals.com/den…

      • Libertad says:
        Fri September 21, 2012 at 3:18 AM MDT

        JFrackenlooper, you must be hot …. the social and economic damages will be massive from this political trade cannot be undone …. will you be funding an effort to primary Guv Hickenlooper?

        Gov. Hickenlooper’s backing of fracking is thumped by local officials

        By MARK JAFFE The Denver Post

        TOPICS: fracking, Hickenlooper, oil and gas, Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper

        Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper has avoided political flak in his career, but his support of oil and gas fracking is drawing the ire of citizens, local officials and environmentalists.

        Wednesday Hickenlooper and his positions on oil and gas development and his opposition some local drilling regulations sparked a series of protests.

        What’s the plan of action here …. Occupy Hickenlooper? Why won’t your fake liberal friends activate …. yes, you’re not really committed to the cause, you leftists just want to elect Democrats. You’re self created Democrat straw men.

  9. parsingreality says:
    Fri September 21, 2012 at 12:26 AM MDT

    Even forfeited money and a ranch, it appears.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…

    • Craig says:
      Fri September 21, 2012 at 1:16 AM MDT

      Of many in the entire lineage of the Morman chruch.  The founders were known grifters, claiming they could find water with a rock and being arrested for counterfeiting and other various crimes.  The whole history is filled with bad people who blamed their choices on religious persecution.

      • parsingreality says:
        Fri September 21, 2012 at 4:35 AM MDT

        ….something like “A Journey Through the West.”  It was a journal of some famous Americans like Seward of famous folly, and others.  Absolutely fascinating.

        Anyway, they checked out Salt Lake City and meet with Brigham Young (?) and others.  They were especially curious about the polygamy.  Their conclusion, to put it into 21st century vernacular would be: I get me a lot of pussy this way.  

  10. harrydobyharrydoby says:
    Fri September 21, 2012 at 1:48 AM MDT

    Mitt Romney, in another Ready-Fire-Aim response to President Obama’s comment that he can’t change Washington from the inside:

    “I think that I’ve learned some lessons over the last four years and the most important lesson I’ve learned is that you can’t change Washington from the inside,” Obama said, appearing to admit his inability to fully deliver on one of the driving themes of his 2008 campaign. “You can only change it from the outside. That’s how I got elected. And that’s how the big accomplishments like health care got done.”

    Speaking in Sarasota Thursday, Romney – who made his own Univision forum appearance Wednesday – said this amounted to Obama throwing in “the white flag of surrender.”

    “I can change Washington,” Romney promised. “I will change Washington. I will get the job done from the inside.”

    But you only have to go back to Romney version 1.0 to see that he’s arguing with himself again:

    “Probably my best capability is in building a good team and working with people within that team and across the aisle to get the job done, and I’m not trying to take away from somebody else. They may have their skills. Sen. McCain has been there in Washington 27 years. So he certainly has political skill, but I believe that at this time, to change Washington, it would be helpful to have somebody who comes with more private sector skill, experience outside Washington. I don’t think you change Washington from the inside. I think you change it from the outside.”

    It occurs to me that you can get Mitt Romney to say just about anything — all you have to do is say the opposite of what you want Mitt to say.  You could lead him around like a goat that way.

  11. Diogenesdemar says:
    Fri September 21, 2012 at 2:10 AM MDT

    great fucking addition to your legacy . . .

    Empty chair ‘lynchings’: Anti-Obama protests gone too far?

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new…

    “Too far” for a bunch of racist Republicans?  Hell, yes!!  

  12. Diogenesdemar says:
    Fri September 21, 2012 at 2:17 AM MDT

    Anti-jihad ‘savage’ ads going up in NYC subway

    http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAUL…

    You have to look really hard to find a downside to this, huh?

    (For anyone tuning in here for the very first time, 99% of everything I say is sarcasm — this is not an exception to that rule.)

  14. JFrackenlooper says:
    Wed November 7, 2012 at 1:46 AM MDT

    There.  That’s it.

    I came back to the reservation enough to win their hearts back, fool!

    Many apologies for your defeat another time at the polls.  I hear tell those diapers chafe.  You might try some powder.  

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