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Fisking Ross Kaminsky

by: Steve Balboni

Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 13:26:22 PM MDT


( - promoted by Colorado Pols)

Now that Josh Sharf has left to run in the HD-6 GOP primary the Denver Post has turned to Ross Kaminsky to play the role of glibertarian on their Politics West blog. What has Ross' dander up today? The governor's Earth Day Executive Order concerning greenhouse gas emissions.

Kaminsky starts off with this kicker of a post title:

"The Imperial Bill Ritter (hint: he's not a scientist)"

You know who else isn't a scientist? Ross Kaminsky. Just so everyone is up to speed, Ritter is not a scientist so he shouldn't take action as governor on climate change. Ross is not a scientist but he has opinions and everyone should listen to them.  Not a strong opener from our friend Ross and it doesn't get much better.
Steve Balboni :: Fisking Ross Kaminsky
Moving on to the body of the post,
In typical imperial Ritter style, governing by Executive Order rather than through the legislature which at least might represent the will of the people, Ritter is trying to force the state to cut overall emissions by 20% in just over a decade, and by 80% by 2050.

That's the 2nd use of the word imperial, this time combined with a grandiose statement about the will of the people. I hate to break it to Ross but Bill Ritter was duly elected by the people of Colorado and his environmental positions were a prominent feature of his campaign. There's nothing undemocratic about a properly elected governor using his constitutional power to guide state policy. Especially when that policy has been a focal point for his campaign and his administration.

Notice too how Ross uses the word "force." That implies that the Executive Order in question has set hardline standards for reduction, has an enforcement mechanism in place and prescribes some sort of penalties for a failure to meet these numbers. Except the EO does nothing of the sort, it merely sets the reduction numbers as "goals." It then instructs various state agencies to gather data (Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment) and (Governors Energy Office and the Department of Revenue) to identify "regulatory and legislative changes that may be needed to provide investor-owned utilities with the incentives to invest in renewable energy resources..." That's it. There are no mandates to private business. There's no hard cap that carries some sort of punitive measures for anyone who does not mean the standards. They are merely goals and the EO merely instructs various agencies and departments of the Executive branch to cooperate with each other and develop a climate plan.

Of course if you didn't read the Executive Order and merely read Ross' blog you wouldn't know that. You would think that the governor had just issued strict and far reaching mandates. I realize that blogs are by their nature partisan opinion pieces but this bit from Ross is shockingly dishonest.

Read the Executive Order yourself right here.

Moving on Ross launches another dishonest attack, this time on biofuels.

The headlong rush by liberal elites in the US and the EU to the use of ethanol is now causing food shortages and riots in the Third World, and bringing zero benefit to the environment.

Again, so much to unpack from this one sentence. First, corn based biofuels are not being pushed by "liberal elites" so much as they were being pushed by various government leaders. First and foremost among them was George W. Bush,

In his 2005 State of the Union Address, President Bush stated that there is "strong funding for...ethanol." In his 2006 Address, he revealed his plan to make ethanol "practical and competitive within six years" after he famously stated "America is addicted to oil." It was this announcement that established ethanol as an alternative energy powerhouse as ethanol stocks immediately bubbled to new highs.

<!--more-->

In his 2007 Address, Bush announced that "we must continue investing in new methods of producing ethanol, using everything from wood chips to grasses, to agricultural wastes" in hope of "reducing gasoline usage in the United States by 20 percent in the next 10 years."

This year, however, President Bush didn't specifically acknowledge ethanol in his State of the Union Address; the first time since 2004

Second we have the issue of food shortages. They are real and ethanol biofuels are a factor but not an especially large factor. The current food crisis is being driven by shortages of wheat and rice, not corn. Also contributing is the growing wealth of China and India. Ethanol is, at best, a break even proposition for the environment but it's probably not even that. That is of course why you don't hear leaders pushing for the use of such biofuels.

Which brings us to our third point where Kamisnky seems to imply that Ritter's Executive Order is advocating for biofuels when, in fact, the terms biofuel and ethanol never appear anywhere in the document.

3 dishonest statements in 1 sentence. That is quite a feat.

Next Ross tries his hand at science,

All the recent data that I've seen from reliable sources such as NASA show that the planet has been cooling slightly for much of the past decade.

I'd like to see what data Ross is referring to because when I go to NASA's website I don't see anything of the sort. Instead we see statements such as this,
The year 2007 tied for second warmest in the period of instrumental data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) analysis.

That bit of data, from NASA, directly contradicts what Kamisnky claims that NASA's data shows. He's either uninformed or a bald-faced liar. I'll let you decide.

The gross distortions continue,

the Arctic sea ice regained more than everything it lost in the prior summer

Really? Perhaps Kaminsky should let the folks at NOAA know that because they are pretty concerned. From an article at the Science Daily website published just 15 days ago,
NOAA scientists are now flying through springtime Arctic pollution to find out why the region is warming - and summertime sea ice is melting - faster than predicted. Some 35 NOAA researchers are gathering with government and university colleagues in Fairbanks, Alaska, to conduct the study through April 23...

Observations from instruments on the ground, balloons, and satellites show the Arctic is warming faster than the rest of the globe. Summer sea-ice extent has decreased by nearly 40 percent compared to the 1979-2000 average, and the ice is thinning.

I could continue, there are other distortions and lies scattered throughout Kaminsky's post but I think I've made my point. It's clear that Ross Kaminsky is at best grossly uninformed on the issues. Why the Denver Post would employ him to fill their apparent glibertarian quota is beyond me. Some amount of partisan spin is to be expected in blog posts but this is just embarrassing. Shame on the post for publishing such fact-free nonsense and shame on Kaminsky for being so utterly dishonest.


Cross-posted at
http://steampoweredopinions.bl...

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Fisking Steve Balboni
Mr. Balboni,

It's amusing to see you suggest I am uninformed on the science of climate change as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  Furthermore, you intentionally try to criticize the facts by implying I've said something other than what I said, such is in item 7 below.

I believe I have answered all or nearly all of your questions about the science of climate change.  I have certainly answered enough to demonstrate that it is you, not I, who is the prevaricator on the issue.  I would bet that you haven't spent 10% of the time I have thinking about the issue, and your responses to me make that clear.

I'm not going to spend time here talking about the "imperial Ritter" stuff. People can agree to disagree about the politics.  

But facts are stubborn things and not open to debate as much as you'd wish they were, as you watch the climate alarmsists' world come crashing down around them.  Here are responses to your muddle-headed critiques to the scientific facts I presented. (The first comment is a political note, the last is an economic note, and the 6 in between are the science which you so greatly fear.)

1) I have slammed Bush and other non-liberals for buying into the ethanol disaster. But many of them were relatively late to the game, which was mostly pushed by a combination of environmentalists and special interests.

2)Here is the story whose existence you deny about NASA data showing slight ocean cooling in recent years:
http://www.nationalpost.com/op...

3) Related to the issues in my original note, here's a NASA page showing the vast majority of Antarctica cooling over the last 20 years:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.g...

4) Four major temperature measurements show noticeable cooling since last year:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpre...

5) Another NASA study showing that "many changes seen in upper Arctic Ocean circulation in the 1990s were mostly decadal in nature, rather than trends caused by global warming":
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/n...

6) Your statement about the 2007 temperatures as reported by the Goddard Institute is adequately debunked in the Colorado Springs gazette:
"What they hid is that the warmth was the result of a temporary spike caused by a strong El NiƱo which drove up land and air temperatures. January was the warmest month of 2007 and the temperatures have declined sharply in a dramatic plunge with significantly colder winters and mild summers in both hemispheres. Every climate monitoring agency has reported declining atmospheric, surface and ocean temperatures, along with increased snow cover and ice volume."
http://www.gazette.com/opinion...

7) The article you misleadingly reference regarding Arctic ice is specifically discussing summer ice melting, where I talked about the winter ice recovery.  Here is the graph substantiating my factual assertion that during this past winter the ice regained more than everything it lost the prior summer:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/c...

8) Your economic idiocy is showing when it comes to the food shortage. The fact that the shortage is in wheat and rice rather than corn does not mean that the ethanol policy isn't the problem.  Once the government added additional large subsidies for ethanol, farmers substituted to planting corn away from planting other crops, contributing to shortages of those other crops.  That trend is beginning to reverse now because the original government-caused distortion has forced the price of the other crops up so high that farmers are returning to planting them.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


You're a little right and a lot wrong
In the case of the fallout from the idiotic use of corn for ethanol you have very good points - congrats on getting that right.

With that said, saying that global warming is not happening is as stupid as saying evolution does not occur. You take the point that in science nothing is 100% certain and twist that beyond all recognition to try and prove your predetermined result.

As to Ritter using executive orders at times - that's part of his job. You can argue that you wish he had different policies but saying he should not issue executive orders is akin to saying the legislature should not pass laws - it's nonsensical.

So 1 right, 2 wrong - hey at 33% you're doing better than many Republican politicians nowadays. So congrats.

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
Ritter didn't invent the executive order
Bill Owens issued a lot of them himself.

[ Parent ]
Rebuttal
I have a lengthy reubattal ready to go, Pols seems to be chocking on it. Fear not, I will respond to every one of your points.  

[ Parent ]
why bother?
No point in bringing that game here.  Let realclimate take that traffic.  Since the motivating outlook of the climate skeptic is that conspiracy theories lurk in every corner, you will never convince them of your points no matter how many gallons of evidence you use.

In fact, I just registered
www.veryliberalagitatedpissedoffpeoplewithnoorganization.com
-Laughing Boy


[ Parent ]
I know you are correct
I just have a hard time letting things like that stay out there without a response. It's probably silly but in my mind not responding is to concede the point and given that these conversations stay out here in cyberspace in perpetuity I hate to concede any of these points.

It's a character flaw :P  


[ Parent ]
More fisking
Apparently too many html tags causes the system to choke.

Here is my response, point by point. Apologies for the lack of real formatting. If Pols can add blockquotes or italics please feel free to do so.

1) I have slammed Bush and other non-liberals for buying into the ethanol disaster. But many of them were relatively late to the game, which was mostly pushed by a combination of environmentalists and special interests.

* This is neither here nor there. You slammed "liberals" in this post and ignored the role of  people like George W. Bush

2)Here is the story whose existence you deny about NASA data showing slight ocean cooling in recent years:
http://www.nationalpost.com/op...

* Now you're shifting the goal posts to "ocean cooling" when your original post states "the planet has been cooling slightly for much of the past decade." You're carving out a tiny data set regarding 1 portion of the climate and holding it up as evidence that somehow contradicts the overall trend.

3) Related to the issues in my original note, here's a NASA page showing the vast majority of Antarctica cooling over the last 20 years:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.g...

* Look closely at your source Mr. Kaminsky, it clearly states "This image shows trends in skin temperatures-temperatures from roughly the top millimeter of the land or sea surface-not air temperatures."

Again you are using a very narrow data set to refute the overwhelming evidence that contradicts your position.

4) Four major temperature measurements show noticeable cooling since last year:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpre...

* Your source cites the UK's Hadley Centre's data (among others) here is what the Hadley center states about the very data you cite,
"A significant drop in global average temperature in January 2008 has led to speculation that the Earth is experiencing a period of sustained cooling.

A brief look at the graph depicting January global average temperatures reveals large variability in our climate year-on-year, but with an underlying rise over the longer term almost certainly caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases...

January 2008 may seem particularly cold compared to January 2007 - the warmest January on record and largely due to the warming phenomenon El NiƱo - but this merely demonstrates the year-to-year natural variations in our climate."

5) Another NASA study showing that "many changes seen in upper Arctic Ocean circulation in the 1990s were mostly decadal in nature, rather than trends caused by global warming":
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/n...

* Conveniently you left off the rest of that quote,
""While some 1990s climate trends, such as declines in Arctic sea ice extent, have continued, these results suggest at least for the 'wet' part of the Arctic -- the Arctic Ocean -- circulation reverted to conditions like those prevalent before the 1990s,"
The overall trend hasn't changed, the finding you cite is very specific to 1 portion of the Arctic.

6) Your statement about the 2007 temperatures as reported by the Goddard Institute is adequately debunked in the Colorado Springs gazette:

* And this year, when La Nina drives temps down a hair I assume you and Mr. Pico will be right out front debunking your ideological comrades claims about climate change, right?

Again from Hadley,
"There are a number of natural factors contributing to so-called interannual variability, the single most important being the El NiƱo Southern Oscillation or ENSO.  The global climate is currently being influenced by the cold phase of this oscillation, known as La NiƱa (see Met Office: Expert speaks on La NiƱa).

The current La Niña began to develop in early 2007, having a significant cooling effect on the global average temperature. Despite this, 2007 was one of the ten warmest years since global records began in 1850 with a temperature some 0.4 °C above average."

7) The article you misleadingly reference regarding Arctic ice is specifically discussing summer ice melting, where I talked about the winter ice recovery.  Here is the graph substantiating my factual assertion that during this past winter the ice regained more than everything it lost the prior summer:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/c...

* As you state at the end of your piece, "short-term data points should not be used to determine the accuracy of theorized long-term phenomena" and yet there you go doing exactly that.

According to NASA in 2005 and 2006
"Summer ice is not the only Arctic ice that has retreated in recent years. In 2005 and 2006, the winter ice maximum was about 6% smaller than the average amount over the past 26 years. This retreat is larger than the long-term 1.5 to 2% decrease in winter ice per decade."
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/go...

8) Your economic idiocy is showing when it comes to the food shortage. The fact that the shortage is in wheat and rice rather than corn does not mean that the ethanol policy isn't the problem.  Once the government added additional large subsidies for ethanol, farmers substituted to planting corn away from planting other crops, contributing to shortages of those other crops.  That trend is beginning to reverse now because the original government-caused distortion has forced the price of the other crops up so high that farmers are returning to planting them.

* Great job attacking that strawman. I very clearly stated, "ethanol biofuels are a factor."

From The Economist (emphasis mine), http://www.economist.com/world...
"The prices mainly reflect changes in demand-not problems of supply, such as harvest failure. The changes include the gentle upward pressure from people in China and India eating more grain and meat as they grow rich and the sudden, voracious appetites of western biofuels programmes, which convert cereals into fuel. This year the share of the maize (corn) crop going into ethanol in America has risen and the European Union is implementing its own biofuels targets. To make matters worse, more febrile behaviour seems to be influencing markets: export quotas by large grain producers, rumours of panic-buying by grain importers, money from hedge funds looking for new markets."

I'm sorry, what was that you said about economic idiocy?

Indeed corn exports form the US to the rest of the world are UP for 2008
http://westernfarmpress.com/ne...

Ethanol is a factor but acting as though it is the sole factor, as you did, is not accurate.

Your response to my original post has proven to be nothing but more of the same. You cherry pick data and quotes to create an argument that is fundamentally dishonest.


[ Parent ]
Continuing the debate...
Steve and others,

I'll respond to your points one point at a time, adding new information as I go.

One general response to your responses to me. My note is not intended to be an exhaustive recitation of all the evidence against climate alarmism.  It's silly to claim that I'm wrong because I only give you one piece of evidence for each point I make, your implication being there isn't more evidence.  There is lots more evidence, and I'll give you some here.  Beyond that you can do your own homework.

1) You're right...I mostly attacked liberals in that article although there is no doubt that in the ethanol debate specifically there is great complicity, and maybe even dominance at this point, by special interests such as ADM.  Indeed, I agree with you that special interests have gotten involved with most of the issue, such as by pushing compact fluorescent light bulbs on us without explaining their weaknesses, costs, and risks.  That said, in my view ethanol is an offshoot of the overall "global warming" hysteria, which was absolutely pushed on us by liberals, regardless of who their current accomplices are.

2) The data set on oceans is very important because climate alarmists frequently use the oceans as the basis of their forecasts.  However, if you look at the many charts on this "official" page, you'll see basically no warming trend for the majority of the past decade, and clearly no warming trend for the US:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gist...

Furthermore, more in-depth research shows that there is only apparent warming at US stations in urban areas, not in rural areas, a strong implication that the urban heat island effect is skewing data to make warming appear broad-based when it isn't.

3) You need to do more reading about Antarctica.  Yes, the graph I showed you was of surface temperatures, but other studies of air temperatures show the same thing: Antarctica has not been warming for at least 30 years.  

Not only has Antarctica not been warming, but it has, contrary to what the media want you to believe, been GAINING sea ice on average for decades.
http://icecap.us/images/upload...

I wonder how many of you know that Antarctica contains over 90% of the world's sea ice, and, I repeat, it has been gaining ice mass on average for 30 years or more.

4) I'm not sure what your point is.  Yes, the drop from Jan '07 to Jan '08 looks big because Jan '07 was high from El Nino, but you can't criticize that drop and at the same time accept the argument that '07 was then some sort of record because of El Nino.  Either '07 was not the record that the alarmists want to claim, or '08 was a big and important drop.  You can choose which you like.

5) I believe you are misunderstanding the article.  The bit that you quote which you say shows my data cherry-picking seems to reinforce my claim not weaken it.  You quote this "While some 1990s climate trends, such as declines in Arctic sea ice extent, have continued, these results suggest at least for the 'wet' part of the Arctic -- the Arctic Ocean -- circulation reverted to conditions like those prevalent before the 1990s".  What this says is that the Arctic Ocean is demonstrating cyclicality, not a straight-line trend.  And the scientist in the article suggests that the reverse in cycle is fairly likely to reverse summer Arctic ice losses from recent years. the most recent of which, as I've shown was already more than reversed this past winter.  Basically, I think you completely misread the article, and are quoting information which backs up my point.

6) See my answer to (4) above. I'd also re-emphasize my point about how data is measured. Here's one great example:
http://www.norcalblogs.com/wat...

7) I never said the Arctic ice didn't melt a lot last summer. I stipulated that.  What I said was that there was a RECORD ice recovery this past winter.
http://www.thedailygreen.com/e...

I would also reemphasize that the Arctic and Greenland combined hold very little ice in comparison to the Antarctic...which is gaining sea ice consistently despite the press's breathless reporting when a piece of ice breaks off at the edge.

8) I did not say that ethanol was the only cause of current food problems.  In my other recent writing on the subject, I referenced the same Economist article you did and noted ethanol as "a factor".
http://www.humanevents.com/art...

However, even in the part you quote, it mentions clearly the use of corn for ethanol and the EU biofuels targets.

Corn export levels are irrelevant.  The production of corn has increased massively, in part so we could export to the EU to meet their targets, which now seem to be on hold because of claims by some that they represent "crimes against humanity".
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/arti...

OK, now a couple more thoughts:

I never said the world had never warmed.  I said it hadn't warmed recently.  Now, I would add that there has been a warming trend in place since well before modern economies started putting "greenhouse gases" into the atmosphere, a fact which a rational person would take as casting doubt on the entire speculation about climate change being primarily or even substantially anthropogenic.  Of course, the fact that temperature changes lead, and don't follow, changes in atmospheric CO2 concentrations should also make "man-made global warming" claims seem not credible to anyone with an open mind.

The IPCC is a hyper-political body, controlled by people who get salaries and grants by telling us that the world will end unless we pay them to study it.

I highly recommend everyone read the new study by 15 climate scientists who simply shred all the basic claims of the IPCC using science, statistics, and provable fact:
http://www.heartland.org/pdf/2...

Many of the readers on this site totally miss the point about "climate change". The point isn't that climate doesn't change. Of course it does.  The point is that it's exceptionally unlikely that the changes are caused by people or that we can do anything about it.  Other points...subjects for another day...are 1) if we could attempt to "do something about it", you have to consider the cost to the world economy, and 2) why do people assume that the results of the modest sorts of warming we've had should be bad when it seems clear the net economic effect is and will be positive?

In summary, Steve, I did not "cherry-pick data", the implication being that I only picked sub-sets that make my point. I showed one piece of data for each argument I made. Each of those pieces stands on its own and your refutations were wrong or irrelevant. And beyond that, I showed more data for each argument because there is plenty of data to back me up.

The world of the climate alarmists is crashing down around them, slowly but surely. I only hope it collapses completely before government policies are implemented which destroy our economy.

Liberals always think there's a conspiracy by "big business". For once they may have a point. Certain big businesses, including GE, WalMart, Lehman Brothers, BP, and others are working hard to try to structure a system from which they can extract the most money from taxpayers and consumers in the name of being "green".  But don't forget, using the same "follow the money" analysis that you use when attacking capitalism at every turn, that many scientists...including at NASA...have financial and personal incentives to tell us the sky is falling.  (In the NIPCC report I linked to before, they describe in more detail the political and financial bias within the climate alarmist community, including the corruption that has brought to the process of "peer-reviewing" climate change literature. Here's the link again, just in case:
http://www.heartland.org/pdf/2... )

All in all, it's amusing to see the naive liberals on this site think that Mr. Balboni effectively refuted my points.  He did no such thing, of course.  The only problem with the naivety is that it shows people are likely to support economically devastating policy choices based on junk science put out by both liberals and self-interested groups including industry and grant-seeking scientists.  One day, those of you who drank this Algore Kool-Aid will probably look back with modest embarrassment. I just hope you haven't wrecked the country first.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
Naivity is as naivity does.
You claim "The IPCC is a hyper-political body, controlled by people who get salaries and grants by telling us that the world will end unless we pay them to study it."

Of course, this is false. The IPCC is composed of climate scientists from all around the world. Like all scientists, each individual understands that finding flaws in the work of one's peers, substantiating this claim, and proposing a superior alternative, is the path to greater fame and funding. Going along with the pack only ensures your obscurity.

Real climate scientists are at work every day trying to show that anthropogenically-induced global warming is false. The fact that they keep failing at this suggests that, hmmm, maybe there is something real here.

For 40+ years, scientists have been gathering data and testing assumptions and predictions. Scientists are an inherently conservative lot and tend to nit-pick at the conclusions of their peers. For scientists all over the world to agree to the statements that came out in the most recent IPCC report is astounding. They would not do this unless the evidence was even more convincing than they are letting on.

If you understood the scientific process you would realize how naive you appear when you call others naive.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.


[ Parent ]
See Steve? I told you so....
No point in doing this.  Only somebody seriously delusional like RK believes that a very tiny minority of researchers and their vocal non-scientist boosters have more credibility in this debate than the thousands of climatology researchers in the world who have contributed directly or indirectly and who stand by the IPCC reports.

Ross, since you are not an active, practicing research scientist in this field your only path to understanding the climate system -- if you honestly want to know about it -- is to listen to experts in the field.  So, if you want to be intellectually honest about this, you have a few options (none of which include reading Heartland Institute blogs and repeating their spin):

1- Read the past ten years worth of articles in Geophys. Res. Letters, J. of Geophys. Res., J. Phys. Oceanography, J. Climate, etc. Report back to us on what you found.  Did you learn anything?  Is AGW all bullshit?

2- Gov. Ritter is not a scientist but CO easily has the highest proportion of climate scientists in its resident population of any U.S. state (NOAA, NCAR/UCAR, CU, INSTAAR, etc.). Canvas a large representative sample of them and see what you come up with.  

Until then, please spare us the repeats from free enterprise think tanks who themselves do no original atmospheric science and climatology research of their own, but instead cloak their political and social agenda under a mantle of "science."

In fact, I just registered
www.veryliberalagitatedpissedoffpeoplewithnoorganization.com
-Laughing Boy


[ Parent ]
I cannot believe you actually wrote this…
One general response to your responses to me. My note is not intended to be an exhaustive recitation of all the evidence against climate alarmism.  It's silly to claim that I'm wrong because I only give you one piece of evidence for each point I make, your implication being there isn't more evidence.  There is lots more evidence, and I'll give you some here.  Beyond that you can do your own homework.

If I were writing a standard report for a college class and based each of my conclusions on one piece of evidence each, I would get an "F." And that is why you, my friend, get a big fat "F." It's not at all silly to claim your wrong because of your lack of evidence, simply for the fact that there are so many scientists out there who are actually conducting solid research and have come to the conclusion that global warming is real and that humans are greatly contributing to it. You have no qualifications to be out telling people it's false based on half the story... scratch that, it's more like 1% of the story. You're being disingenuous and foolish. You do the homework and really try to conceptualize how all that data interacts to show the truth - that global warming is real and that humans are contributing to it - then maybe you will have some qualifications to speak about it. Until then, do the world a favor and keep quiet. Capiche?

The point is that it's exceptionally unlikely that the changes are caused by people or that we can do anything about it.

Prove that humans don't contribute to it. In fact, tell me how pumping millions upon millions of tons of pollutants into our air, ground and water could possibly, in any way be could for the environment. If there is even one shred of evidence that humans are contributing to global warming and having a permanent negative impact on the future of earth, then there is absolutely no reason that we should not try to address that and find long-term solutions to stop, if not repair, that damage. And believe me, there's not just a thread of evidence, there are mountains.

If we could attempt to "do something about it", you have to consider the cost to the world economy.

And
The only problem with the naivety is that it shows people are likely to support economically devastating policy choices based on junk science put out by both liberals and self-interested groups including industry and grant-seeking scientists.

You claim that those that are educating people about the real concerns about global warming are using a "sky is falling" tactic. If anything, you and your tiny minority of non-believers are using a "sky is falling' mentality when claiming the economy will be "devastated" if we actually try to fix this problem. How hypocritical of you. In addition to that, if anything, green technology will help create new jobs and strengthen the economy. In Colorado alone, at least three companies are in the process of setting up shop here to develop and study renewable energy and other environmentally progressive ideas. Furthermore, facing this problem head-on is a challenge and Americans love a challenge. What the hell are you so afraid of? Lastly, it seems contradicting to me that you would attempt to use bits of the supposed "junk science" to prove your points. Just so I understand, is it only "junk science" if it doesn't support your argument?

[ Parent ]
I don't know much about global warming
But I do know that Rossputin's arguments were at least cogent and backed with links.

His opposition seems more intent on hurling ad hominem attacks than actually citing anything besides their own opinions.


[ Parent ]
And what links they are!
Yes, those links to articles by the Heartland Institute http://colorado.mediamatters.o... -- an Exxon-funded conservative think tank with a global warming deniers agenda -- and to an article that Kaminsky himself wrote on the right-wing website Human Events really provide some credible substantiation of his points. Toss in his distortions of some of his citations such as the Daily Green piece and you can see how Kaminsky has gotten his reputation as a serial misinformer.

[ Parent ]
Heartland Institute
The Heartland Institute has never gotten more than a single-digit percentage of its funding from all energy companies combined.  Exxon has been a contributor, but the leftists like to make it sound as if Heartland is a subsidiary of big business, which it most certainly isn't.

Why don't you tell us, Mr. Menezes, where your funding comes from?

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
Exxon, and Koch, and let's see, who else?
A few hundred thousand from Exxon, another few hundred thousand from the family foundations run by Koch Industries, the nation's largest privately held energy company. It adds up pretty quickly.

[ Parent ]
Yes, he did provide links,
But my point is that his writing on this blog and the Denver post blog does not meet the quality that a 20 year old must meet to get a good grade in a college class. This is frustrating to me because the average citizen reads what he writes and doesn't think about it that way. Ross's argument may have links, but that doesn't make it cogent. The very fact that he is making this argument in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary makes it unconvincing. From my perspective, paid journalists should do an appropriate amount of due diligence to give accurate information in their writing. Ross has not done that. I am not asking him to write a science paper, I'm asking him to write a truthful one, because the average citizen doesn't read a science paper, they read what's in the newspaper.  

Also regarding the quality of writing in general, there is one thing I remember from school about trying to prove an argument or prediction, whether it be in science class, history class, math class, etc. You can start out with a preconceived notion or prediction on the conclusion of what you're studying, but if, within your studies, you find your prediction to be untrue, you admit you were originally mistaken. In other words, if you have done comprehensive research on the subject and you find that the research contradicts your prediction, then there is only one conclusion and that is the truth. You don't take the parts of the research you liked to prove your prediction. I mean, this is basic stuff I'm talking about.

And Jericho, to your last point, some of my fellow believers (in the truth) have been using proof to contradict Ross. I choose not to do that for two reasons: First, Ross has shown no willingness to reconsider his position based on this evidence and second, I am trying to understand why someone, like Ross, is motivated to write such falsities; how he can justify himself in the face of insurmountable evidence. And even if he doesn't consider the evidence, but only that there is no possible way it can be good for the environment to pump millions upon millions of tons into our air, water and ground. The discussion I want to have with Ross is different than the one that he is having with Steve Balboni and the others.


[ Parent ]
Chris, that's just silly
Chris,

I am not writing a college science paper.  I am offering a brief hint of information to those who may not ever dig into it which shows that there is plenty of peer-reviewed science which opposes the global warming alarmists.

I need not prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt to you.  If you're interested in learning more than what mainstream media is telling you, then I've opened that intellectual door for you.  And if you don't care to know, then I can't push you through the door.

I've offered more than enough evidence from more than enough sources for my claims to be at least credible, even if you don't want to believe them immediately.

If you can handle it, I dare you to read some of the stuff.  Read the NIPCC report, for example, and at least consider the issues they raise about the corruption of science by the UN's IPCC.  It's true that the IPCC theoretically has many members but in practice only a very small number actually control what gets into their documents, and there have been several scientists who quit the IPCC because they were black-balled from offering evidence that opposed the IPCC's pre-conceived notions.

I am not opposed to renewable energy!  I am opposed to massive government subsidies and to sacrificing the economy in the name of being "green". The ethanol disaster is just one example of the horrible unintended consequences of what you call "progressive" ideas, and I guarantee you we'll get more terrible unintended consequences if the nation continues down this path of thinking that we can do anything about the climate.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
Ross, regarding the first paragraph, please see my response to jericho above.
For the second paragraph, you know damn well that the average citizen will not do further research to find the truth. A fault? Yes, to some degree. But the fact is, average citizens turn to journalists to do that work for them. I mean, come on, it's your job to try and seek out the truth and report it! We don't all have time to go in-depth, so we just take in what you and other journalist give. And the average citizen expects you to take the time to develop accurate conclusions. You have not offered enough evidence to make your argument credible, because for every one piece of evidence you provide, there are 100 times that prove the opposite. I'm not asking for a shadow of a doubt, I'm asking for a reasonable amount of evidence for your conclusion. We rely on you to provide the most accurate information you can. I wouldn't hand in a paper to a teacher and say "I did a small amount of research and came to a conclusion based on that, but if you want to know if I'm correct, then you do the rest of the research." I'm appalled that you would suggest that we readers do the rest of your research. But the kicker is that it is only on this site that you have done suggested that. Now, if you were to provide a disclaimer at the bottom of your writings to the effect of the quotation above, I might actually feel better about all this.

In any case, we are fortunate that common sense on this particular issue (backed by mountains evidence) makes it apparent that you have not, in this case, done the appropriate amount of research to come to your conclusion, otherwise you would not have come to that conclusion. At the very least, you would admit that humans pumping millions of tons of pollution into our air, water and ground is understandably affecting the normal patterns of the earth, including global warming. Now, you may not agree with what we should do about it, but that's a different story.

I'm not afraid to read anything you provide, but I know I will only be getting half (if even that amount) of the story. This is the problem. As a journalist I believe you are required to do the best you can to provide all sides of the story. You have failed, but the average citizen doesn't know you've failed and you taint them with your (less than) half-truths.

Government subsidies go into so many things and one major beneficiary is the oil industry. Now you may not agree with subsidies, but why are you up in arms only now... now that it is for something that you don't agree with. Why haven't you been on the front line every time? When nothing is subsidized, I'll let you have that point. Until then, let's consider giving subsidies for renewable technology.

Lastly, you didn't address any of the following and I think you should. I mean, you've had so much to say up until now. Why so quiet? Cat got your... ummm... fingers???

Prove that humans don't contribute to it. In fact, tell me how pumping millions upon millions of tons of pollutants into our air, ground and water could possibly, in any way be could for the environment. If there is even one shred of evidence that humans are contributing to global warming and having a permanent negative impact on the future of earth, then there is absolutely no reason that we should not try to address that and find long-term solutions to stop, if not repair, that damage. And believe me, there's not just a thread of evidence, there are mountains.

You claim that those that are educating people about the real concerns about global warming are using a "sky is falling" tactic. If anything, you and your tiny minority of non-believers are using a "sky is falling' mentality when claiming the economy will be "devastated" if we actually try to fix this problem. How hypocritical of you. In addition to that, if anything, green technology will help create new jobs and strengthen the economy. In Colorado alone, at least three companies are in the process of setting up shop here to develop and study renewable energy and other environmentally progressive ideas. Furthermore, facing this problem head-on is a challenge and Americans love a challenge. What the hell are you so afraid of? Lastly, it seems contradicting to me that you would attempt to use bits of the supposed "junk science" to prove your points. Just so I understand, is it only "junk science" if it doesn't support your argument?

Sorry, for some of the repetitiveness. I was just following your lead. No, I'm kidding, I'm just trying to hammer some of this into your head. Notice, I didn't say thick. I'm trying to be cordial.


[ Parent ]
Great analysis and review
One of the great things about blogs is how the dishonest bloggers can be exposed almost immediately.  Good job.

Corn ethanol bad, sugar ethanol not so bad, soybean diesel ok
be specific when talking about bio-fuels.

Ethanol is a factor in food prices, but a bigger factor--wait for it-- global warming.  Increasing desertification is driving down yeilds across the globe.

One thing that people don't understand is that Global Warming--isn't.  It is Global Climate Crisis:  some places get warmer, some colder, some more rain some less.  The atlantic will probably cool, resulting in a colder europe and east coast of america.

Denial of the science is not rational--it is based on faith.  The only folks who don't believe in climate crisis are those paid not too, those who have a vested interest in not believing and those who will believe anything their rhetorical masters tell them.


Re: "be specific when talking about bio-fuels."
This is important and something I am trying to keep in mind. As with all of this debate, specificity is required.

Thanks for the input Danny, excellent points all the way around.  


[ Parent ]
Soybean diesel not as good as can be...
Just to clarify.

If we're ranking crops and effects, there are plants I'd rather see raised than soybean, which is one of the lower yielding bio-diesel crops, and a relatively intensive crop at that.

Of course, I'd rather see algae farms for biodiesel (with hydrogen and cellulosic ethanol byproducts) than any of the above-mentioned crops.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878


[ Parent ]
Algae and Cellulose are the holy grail
Soybeans still have a net positive BTU.

[ Parent ]
Nuclear & Hydrogen!
Nuclear for electricity, Hydrogen for cars. The rest is details...

Tom Tancredo Interview

[ Parent ]
definition of science
"Ideas are tested by experiment. That is the core of science. All else is bookkeeping."

Nonscientists who criticize theories of evolution and climate change will do well to keep this in mind.

http://slog.thestranger.com/20...

"The fact that we Dems can't rebuild the house does not mean you bring back the [Republicans] who burned it down." - DavidThi808


Great job Balboni
While young master Ross called getting sliced and diced "amusing", truth be told he got his hat handed to him by Steve. Denying global warming is "idiotic", not worrying about it. Young master Ross, come back when you've got something that's your own. Nice try with the phony references though. I'm sure the non scientists quoting the guy that talked to the guy that talked to the brother in law of the girl that talked to the  scientists are far more qualified than NOAA.

What a Schmuck!
Although, we have a lot of Schmucks who impersonate Mike Rosen in this state. Mr. Kaminsky is not alone.

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

It's not a flaw
Unless by flaw you mean asset.

Everybody gets their info from the Internet, and bloggers are constantly touting their credibility over that of the MSM.

So it's a good thing to shine light on the credibility of bloggers whose credibility does not rise to the level of the hype, and at the same time give accurate information to people who still don't know anything about the subject but are trying to learn.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


I hate to just pile on...
but good job Steve.  Fucking damn good job (excuse my language).

" And there are no Christian terrorists."

The Beej, circa 8/26/2010


[ Parent ]
Link to a large amount of scientific "skepticism"
Here's a link to a web page which has dozens of articles disproving the current "global warming" alarmism:

http://freebornjohn.blogspot.c...

The intro on the page is also interesting:

Environmentalist Mark Seal started up a forum where global warming could be debated, but he had some initial concerns:

   I was initially worried as to where I would find people who didn't believe in global warming. I had planned to create a furious debate, but in my experience global warming was such a universally accepted issue that I expected to have to dredge the slums of the internet in order to find a couple of deniers who could keep the argument thriving.

Happily, things turned out all right:

   I was swamped by climate skeptics who did a good job of frightening off the few brave Greens who slogged out the debate with. Whilst there was a lot of rubbish written, the truth was that they didn't so much frighten the Greens away - they comprehensively demolished them with a more in depth understanding of the science, cleverly thought out arguments, and some very smart answers. If you want to learn about the physics of convection currents, gas chromatography, or any number of climate science topics then read some of the early debates on TalkClimateChange. I didn't believe a word of it, but I had to admit that these guys were good.

   In the following months the situation hardly changed. As the forum continued to grow, as the blog began to catch traffic, and as I continued to try and recruit green members I continued to be disappointed with the debate. In short, and I am sorry to say it, anti-greens (Reds, as we call them) appear to be more willing to comment, more structured, more able to quote peer reviewed research, more apparently rational and apparently wider read and better informed.

In the comments, someone expresses incredulity that there are any peer reviewed papers that don't support alarmism. As a public service, here are a few links. They come from the Global Warming Clearing House, a newish site that tries to post pro- anti- and neutral links every day. The site author summed up the conclusions this balanced approach had led him to in his first month, as follows (heavily edited down to just some of the headings):

   The Global Temperature is actually going down.

   Measuring data is difficult and prone to errors. Measuring data over a long time is even more so.

   CO2 reacts logarithmically so that the more that enters the atmosphere the less effect it has.

   The Ocean temperatures are not rising and may be dropping.

   Ice coverage is actually above the mean.



I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!

I take your comments as 1 of 2 things
1) You don't understand the scientific process. This is understandable as most people who are not trained as scientists don't. (My degrees are in Physics and Math so I did learn what the scientific process really means.)

2) No global warming is a matter of faith for you and therefore facts are used to butress your belief, not to determine what is actually occcuring.

Either way, there is no point in debating the issue with you because you either do not have the grounding to understand the debate or you don't have the open mind required for a debate.

I'll be polite and assume in your case that it is item (1), that you just don't truly understand the scientific process.

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
One thing that is pretty clear
...is that Kaminsky has a history (http://colorado.mediamatters.org/issues_topics/search_results?qstring=Ross+Kaminsky&imageField.x=140&imageField.y=24) of using misinformation to support his opinions, and the posts here appear to support that pattern. Nice work "Bye Bye", if I may call you that, Steve B.

What's even better is that on the air, guest hosting for fellow serial misinformer Amy Oliver in Greeley, Kaminsky trashed the Post and sucked up to Bob Schaffer over the Post series on the Schaffer-Abramoff axis, but won't do so on his Post blog even in a debate over the stories. All hat, no cattle.


Media Matters is simply a joke
Mr. Menezes,

You and your organization are simply partisan hacks.  Every single thing you accuse me of could be said of you. Basically, if someone disagrees with your leftist agenda, you say that they provide "misinformation".

Your opinion is absolutely meaningless, as it is bought and paid for, whereas no such claim can be made about me.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
That smooching sound you hear...
Partisan? Not Kaminsky. Although here are quotes from his "interview" with Bob Schaffer on KFKA about the Schaffer-Abramoff stories in the Post (http://colorado.mediamatters.org/items/200804230002):

KAMINSKY: Well, congressman, from the things that I've read and learned speaking with you and others about the trip, it seems to me that -- two main points: You were really over there doing the work you were supposed to be doing, and that's what you did. And this story should never have been more than a small paragraph on a back page of a newspaper, if anything. It is really, basically, an irrelevancy with your political opponents trying to target you with something that, I hope that most people will figure out is irrelevant.

KAMINSKY: Congressman, I had mentioned before you were on the air with us that I was fairly appalled by how much attention The Denver Post was giving to this story, it appeared to me, in just trying to smear you. Do you want to talk about that at all?


[ Parent ]
On the way...
Mr. Menezes,

Do you realize that I've been on the Denver Post blog for less than a week?

And you already expect me to have bashed the Post for their smear campaign?

For what reason do you assume that I "won't do so"?  What an absolutely idiotic thing to say, but again I submit that you and your organization are dishonest, bought-and-paid-for, and essentially worthless.

In any case, I am doing my own research on the Post's smear campaign and will respond in due course...and on the Denver Post site I'm contributing to.  Please prepare the lies you will attempt to respond with in service of your left-wing masters.

You know, at least the other people commenting here are speaking for themselves, as far as I can tell. They and I might disagree but most of them are honest in the sense that they're saying what they truly believe...as I am.  I believe they're mostly wrong (and they believe I'm wrong), but as we traders say, "That's what makes a market."  You, on the other hand, are a different beast altogether. Do you want to tell us who funds your group, as you complain about the single-digit percentage of Heartland's revenue that comes from energy companies?  

In any case, you and I both know that the Post's series was entirely dishonest, that the CNMI issue is one which is a thorn in the side of labor unions and their Democratic servants and has been for years. I will do my best to show the series for the garbage that it is.  Media Matters falls into that same category of refuse, but I'm going to avoid even mentioning you on other sites because the last thing I want to do is help get more attention to the propaganda and trash you produce on your site.

I realize that many of the readers of this page will think that my words to you are too harsh. To them I say that I hope you understand what Menezes is, and what he isn't. What he is is a paid political propagandist. What he isn't is an honest broker of anything, even as simple as a differing opinion.

With people like Chris, David, and even Balboni, I could probably discuss an issue over a beer even if we didn't find one point of the issue in common. But with Menezes, you just can't believe that anything he says doesn't have a hidden paid-for political agenda.

'nuf said.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
An Inconvenient Lie
By the way, how many of you are aware that among other fictions in Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", he used computer generated imagery of "Arctic ice shelves" (from the science-fiction film "The Day After Tomorrow") and represented them as real in his movie?

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!

Well gee, why didn't you say so before
That single item clearly refutes all of the research by the tens of thousands of climate scientists.

To be blunt, what does this have to do with the science being right or wrong?

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
Only a liberal...
would argue with a straight face that "one little lie" has no implications about the true of the rest of the presentation.

Of course, it's not just one little lie.  Gore's movie is full of fabrications and exaggerations.

But again, what's the point of explaining that to people whose minds are completely closed?

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
So I assume than that you don't believe anything coming ou of the whitehouse?
Or is it only the little lies that matter?

The movie is basically factual--none of its fundamental arguments have been shown to be false.

Finding a lose thread doesn't threaten the weave.


[ Parent ]
But again, what's the point of explaining that to people whose minds are completely closed?
Are you talking about yourself again? Sure sound like it.

Also, serious question, how do we know that the imagery from the day after tomorrow is not scientifically accurate? In fact, how do you know that that imagery did not originally come from a science lab?


[ Parent ]
The whole fabric
You're incorrect that none of Gore's fundamental arguments have been shown to be false.  For example, one of the key points of his film is trying to show causation between increasing CO2 concentrations and increasing temperatures.  

However, the data shows that temperature goes up BEFORE CO2 goes up, so if there's causation, it's the reverse of what Gore says.

This error is at the very foundation of all of Gore's further points and his policy conclusions.

This is not just a loose thread...it's the whole fabric that's undone.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
A bit desparate are we RossK?
Come on, Al Gore is essentially playing the role of journalist - he is conveying the results of decades of rigorous scientific studies in a language and with visuals that engage a lay audience.

Criticizing Al Gore has no effect on whether or not the underlying science is sound. You really are grasping at ideological straws when you attack Gore.

Geez, arguing with the denier cabal is like playing whack-a-mole.

Here's a RealClimate link on this very topic (since providing links seems to add authority to one's comments): http://www.realclimate.org/ind...

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.


[ Parent ]
You miss the point, Ardy
What I wonder is whether members of the Algore cult will say that it's fine for him to lie as long as it's in furtherance of global warming alarmism.  Can you honestly say that if a global warming skeptic was caught in a lie that bit, the liberal participants on this and other blogs wouldn't be crucifying him?  The left's double-standard says a lot, in my opinion.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!

[ Parent ]
I expect Al Gore to do a good job
And I expect him to get the basic science right. I don't expect him to be perfect. I am disappointed in the inaccuracies in AIT. However, how legit Gore's movie is has no standing on the science that proves global warming.

Tom Tancredo Interview

[ Parent ]
You mean global warming denier.
Scientists are, by nature, true skeptics.

The denier cabal are more accurately described as ideologues.

(In other words, no, I did not miss the point.)

See, ideologues start with a conclusion and then cherry pick "data" that agrees with them.

Scientists/skeptics start with the assumption that they might be wrong, try to find evidence that supports that they are wrong, and only if they fail to find this evidence do they conclude that there might be a chance they were right.

Meanwhile, when they write their peer-reviewed papers, they are upfront with the evidence contrary to their conclusions.

Have you ever spent time reading the scientific literature, Rossputin? Try it. It's very sober and self-effacing.

Indeed, it's difficult to find 10 scientists to agree on anything more than the most general of statements.

Thus, when 1000's of scientists agree that there is warming and that it is very likely (>90%) that humans have contributed significantly to this warming, it is so unusual an event that everyone should take notice.

In other words, this is not an "Al Gore thing." When thousands of scientists are in agreement, this is not something to be dismissed lightly. (And when Al Gore gets something wrong, climate scientists are quick to point this out. Scientists know that lying and hyperbole serve no positive purpose. Right?)

Do some real homework.

If you are concerned about whether CO2 drives warming, or the reverse, try out this analysis: http://www.realclimate.org/ind...

If you're interested in how real climate scientists view "An Inconvenient Truth" try out this: http://www.realclimate.org/ind...

If you'd like an example of how deniers lie by only presenting partial data sets, try out this: http://www.realclimate.org/ind...

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.


[ Parent ]
Why has the right even made this an issue
What I don't understand is why the right wing has choosen to make this an issue. How is keeping the earth habitable something to fight?

And it's not just an issue, it's a litmus test as John Andrews makes clear here as he gets upset with Newt for speaking honestly on this issue.

Tom Tancredo Interview


Cool!
Neo-cons are eating their own!

There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

[ Parent ]
Who's a neocon?


I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!

[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong with keeping the earth habitable
What would be wrong is keeping it habitable by attacking civilization which to a greater or lesser degree is implicit in most "anti-global warming" proposals.

I'm all for conservation, and for using renewable energy sources which are economically viable without subsidies.

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


[ Parent ]
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
There you go again on the economy... like a broken record. Tell me how the economy will be devastated by a new industry that is providing new jobs? Tell me why the oil industry can get subsidies to explore and drill for new oil, which will inevitably delay the transition to renewable energy?

[ Parent ]
Ok, lets do that
Step 1, price oil & coal to match their true cost. This includes folding the entire cost of the Gulf war and the GWoT into the price at the pump.

Start proposing that and you'll make a believer out of me that you are for treating all sources equally.

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
It's been fun
OK, my left-leaning friends.

Thanks for the debate over the past couple of days.  I'm going to move on to newer subjects, having at least temporarily exhausted this one with you.

You can read my stuff at http://www.HumanEvents.com on occasion (though I think the site is far too conservative for most of you, since it's actually to the right of my views much of the time) or over at http://www.politicswest.com/bl...

I look forward to continued rhetorical jousting, and I hope to find at least a few liberals who don't take everything so personally and who actually look at the arguments being made rather simply accepting name-calling by left-wing partisans, especially those (like Media Matters) who get paid to espouse liberal views.  

For anyone who wants to continue a civilized conversation, I'm open to receiving your e-mail. You can contact me through the e-mail link on my own site at http://www.rossputin.com

Best to all, even those who think that "climate change" really is a big problem.

Ross

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!


You're no fun...
You only disputed a small percentage of the excellent points that were made. Small percentage... what does that remind me of? Oh yes, the amount of research you looked at to make your argument.

[ Parent ]
It's about time
Kaminski, what does it take to convince you that your rehashed talking points don't stand up to the scrutiny of simply researching them? About time you figured out that you're doing nothing but embarrassing yourself. Stick to preaching to the choir, you're better at that.  

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