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March 31, 2009 07:22 PM UTC
47 Comments
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How do you tax something like this. What’s the plan?
I think the idea that we should invest in a plan to legalize pot in a recession is ridiculous. Anyone know the history of taxing cigarettes? You don’t just say, “Uh, give us 50% of what you just made on the crap you grow in your closet.” Weed has almost no risk, so it’s not built into the price. How do you get people to pay? Maybe offer a tax write-off for the equipment? They’re stoners, it just might work…
Revenue from alcohol and cigarette taxes are used for education/prevention/addiction programs (in addition to many other programs – but that is another problem). Without legalizing these drugs, there would be no revenue coming to the state and locals.
Regulate the sale of pot; distribute the drug in pharmacies/outlets/shops/vending machines – whatever works so that there is a modicum of control involved. The price is dictated by the market and would not necessarily lead to a black market if the price is held to reasonable levels.
Tax revenue goes to drug awareness/addiction programs, mental health programs and other places that the JBC and the Legislature, in their infinite wisdom, may determine.
In addition, legalizing the plant can help CO agriculture in processing hemp and the variety ways of using that resource (uses less water than corn and is much more useful – and tastes better!). Man, talk about agri-tourism opportunities!
Although the conversations are partly in jest the idea should be discussed since there are logical and relevant reasons to legalize this product.
The FDA would have to get involved. Which types should be allowed?
How do you track which is legal? Does that matter?
Suddenly tacking on a 50% price jump will lead to a black market. We’ll spend a ton of cash tracking this down, otherwise what’s the point, right?
How does this help in this recession? Or are you thinking in a more general way? Not like that’s a problem, I’m just curious.
I’m really asking, from a pot ambivalent position.
revenue issues aside, spending millions to fight pot smokers is a waste.
In Colorado pot hordes are run across, not investigated the way meth labs are. Cops don’t care, that’s why you get a ticket, sometimes. I’d be willing to bet Colorado spent $0 tracking down marijuana, specifically, last year.
We do spend a ton of money on education and addiction help, which we would still need.
and expenses, which I realize makes me off topic. Whatever Colorado taxpayers spend to prosecute marijuana ‘crimes’ is a waste. There are still thousands of people in U.S. prisons because of antiquated marijuana laws. Personally I don’t have a problem with legalization/taxation; I do have a serious problem with continued criminalization of a relatively benign vice, particularly in terms of its social (rather than individual) impacts.
Purely related to Colorado’s budget, we make money off of tickets. How about a compromise were if you’re unlucky enough to be caught with pot, and only pot, you pay a “tax” in the form of a ticket and loose your stash. The state tests the pot for safety (you wouldn’t believe what they’re doing to this natural drug these days) and sell it as medical marijuana.
On enforcement: I used to spin trance professionally, I know potheads. Tops I’ve heard of maybe half a dozen tickets among my friends, only one had his stash confiscated.
the US spends a small fortune in prosecuting, that’s dumb. In Hawaii, they spend money not only seeking out crops, but also for the use of helicopters to confiscate. Seriously.
I’ve only been going for the Colorado perspective.
Grow it on the eastern plains, the west slope, growing facilities in Denver. It is called weed for a reason.
Variety is the spice of life and since there are varieties of pot, we can offer different kinds for different prices. All would be legalized. Alcohol ranges from 3.2 wine coolers to 101 proof Wild Turkey – could be similar with pot.
If I spend around $100 for a quarter of weed now, that is what the market will dictate. If we tacked on a 50% price increase, yeah, a black market would develop, but if the government charges $100 for a quarter – I’ll buy from them since the quality would be better and I wouldn’t need to slink around to find it.
I’m going on the assumption that if we are able to generate tax revenue from the sale and regulation of pot that this revenue would help defray other cuts from other programs. As Pols noted, CO loves themselves their weed. It could possibly help fund other services in the criminal justice system, such as drug courts or existing addiction programs. The irony would be delicious.
Just some thoughts.
The biggest issue in legalizing pot isn’t the government’s ability to collect and spend tax revenue (I have faith they know how to do that well).
It is the cultural stigma of legalizing a drug.
OK, not bad plans, however, good weed is grown indoors in small bunches. Commercially grown weed in our state would be inferior. Again, if you already have the lights in the closet, would you stop? Would you stop safely selling to your college buddies?
Seriously, we have the sunshine needed to grow outdoors, but are sorely lacking in a long enough growing season and humidity. Huge farms probably aren’t a great option. Mixing it into Coors hops fields is a possibility, but the weed would still be bad.
What if they enlisted some of the mid-level growers in helping them get good enough quality? It would turn criminals into small business owners, and then they could make a decent profit, while the state would sell the drugs in licensed facilities.
You’re right, though, that creating a secondary black market would be worse than the current model.
One thing I think you’re underestimating is the amount of resources state officials currently spend on marijuana. The media might not cover it, but they seize a good amount of pot every year.
Anyway, thanks for playing devil’s advocate. It makes for a much more interesting discussion than a bunch of hippies singing “Burn One Down”. 🙂
I wouldn’t even insist on licensed facilities (any more so than a liquor license).
Again on enforcement. I know they seize a ton. Maybe even literally. From my experience though (I’m cute, love cops and ask way too many questions that big, burly cops are happy to stand around and answer) it’s mostly stumbled upon. For instance, yesterday? a house was on fire, in the back was enough pot to keep CU busy for a semester. Because it is currently illegal, that figures into the statistics. Hope that came across OK.
Another point, the Dutch don’t save any money not prosecuting pot because they’ve ramped up other drug enforcement. This makes me laugh, you know how people try to pass off weed as cigarettes? In Amsterdam people stuff illegal drugs into reefer wrappers. That’s not to say legalizing pot makes people do more drugs, it doesn’t, but it does make enforcement difficult in a new way.
Never heard that before, myself. And I’ve read news reports and sociological reports on the Dutch drug system.
What’s a “reefer wrapper”? I’ve never heard that term used before.
Of course the Dutch save money not prosecuting cannabis possession. That’s why they can concentrate on what they consider “hard drugs” (heroin, cocaine) as opposed to cannabis–which is considered a “soft drug” in the Netherlands.
I know about the budget because I’ve been researching this for more than ten years. Most of my information is in hard copy form, from the MoJ.
Of course they aren’t saving huge amounts of money. Border control and stings for huge amounts, etc. are where the money goes. They support a “gedoogbeleid” because as a country they’ve decided it’s a waste of time, not too expensive.
FYI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…
Well, they’d likely be ahead of Sweden (with its zero tolerance), in terms of public expenditure on drug enforcement. Or they’d presumably have less to spend on other aspects of enforcement.
The fact that the Netherlands has a high rate of public expenditure on drug enforcement (#2 in Europe, as you’ve pointed out) makes sense, given that, for instance, the Netherlands has the biggest port in Europe (Rotterdam) and one of the largest and busiest airports in Europe (Schiphol).
place, but the Dutch wouldn’t spend so much money combating other illegal drugs. The perception of the Dutch drugs laws makes the Netherlands one of the largest import ports in Europe. If you’re in Europe and use an imported drug, it almost certainly came through the Netherlands.
Also, in places like Schiphol, all illegal drugs are prohibited and subject to a “zero tolerance” policy. It’s part of an international treaty.
Since our country is where it is, I don’t think that’s likely to happen here. So, even though you’ve made a fantastic anti-pot argument, I’ll let it slide.
http://www.economist.com/displ…
As it’s known in some parts, is said to be as good as you can get. The North Fork Valley produces a fine crop, and there are plenty of bean farmers who’d be happy to switch to a cash crop.
Is there black market cigarettes, liquor and … other things that are taxed, like cars? Yes- but it’s relatively small market according to the ATF and FTC.
If we didn’t tax it any more than other legal controlled substances, just the savings on enforcement would make it worthwhile.
It helps in a recession in that it could make some otherwise ag land productive. THough I would suspect the market would not get that much bigger than it is now it would just be legal and therefor visible and measurable. I mean, are there that many consumers who find themselves willing and wanting but for the challenge of acquiring it?
a couple of months. It would take years to install programs to properly track.
Also, the black market “threat” is much easier to imagine with pot. Alcohol is a huge pain in the ass to make and you need a ton space, same with tobacco. I can’t make those things in my closet.
And the newspapers that survive would be happy to have their cheap paper back. (Industrial hemp was a better paper source prior to 1937)
But what about all the violent crime and interracial sex that would result? I’ve read the Congressional testimony (see http://www.druglibrary.org/sch… and it was clear that when the Feds were contemplating making hemp illegal, they were outraged about interracial sex and illegal immigrants.
I believe it is. You could grow your own cigarettes, but why, when you can get a pack at any public store. You can make your own wine and beer, but how many people have that kind of time? Pot would eventually become the same way.
The bigger question is, “why is pot so scary to so many.” Can any one of you find one pot related death? How about cigarette related deaths? Alcohol related deaths? See my point?
Pot is no different than a glass of wine. Some people have issues with addition and can not drink one glass after work, they drink 3 bottles. But that person has not been a deterrent for the scores of you that love to relax with a fine Chianti after work. As a grown up, why can I not choose to smoke a joint or have a glass of wine?
Let’s talk about the stoners… President Bill Clinton, President GW Bush, President Barack Obama, Gov. Sarah Palin, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, American Legend John Lennon, Jamaican National Hero Bob Marley and the list goes on…
Look, food is an issue for some members of our society, so do we ban food? Gambling is an issue, do we ban gambling?
What is the fear of pot? Interracial sex? The rape of White women by Blacks, Mexicans and Chinese? Time to get a grip! Stop spending my tax dollars on a great American pastime. We are not safer having people who smoke pot in our legal system.
are responsible for adding marijuana to the list of controlled substances. The reasons for making it illegal were bogus from the beginning and its’ status continues to be among the stupidest of policies in all of government.
How many incredibly talented people have been precluded from government and industry because they can’t pass a U.A.? THC is stored in fat cells, so it persists in the body long after its’ effect has faded. The presence in the blood of THC has no bearing on the mental or sensory competence of a user at any given time.
Of course, some people are stoners who routinely smoke themselves into oblivion. They need medical or psychological help, but the vast majority of pot smokers, I believe, are capable and responsible citizens who are unfairly treated as criminals.
Decriminalize the stuff and it will achieve the status of tomatoes. Some will grow their own, some will buy from their neighbors, but most will buy from reputable, USDA certified growers.
No black market will develop because the price will be minimal. What actually should be illegal is to buy foreign grown cannabis without paying a tariff.
with the number of non-violent drug offenders being a big part of the problem and hard stats on the high proportion of marijuana users and small time dealers and the disproportionate number of African Americans who get sent to prison while most white offenders get off without prison time for similar offenses.
http://www.parade.com/news/200…
This also from Jim Webb concerning pot legalization
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…
One blog (I forget where I saw it now) said that Webb was receiving quiet encouragement from the President.
that this kind of bullshit isn’t what I’m arguing for at all. I think it’s pretty obvious that some people are targeted and throwing minor weed dealers in serious prison with actual, dangerous criminals is ridiculous.
To me, this is like jailing an 18 year old for dating a fellow high school student with an actual child rapist.
Give the sole authority to cultivate, package and distribute weed to a state run corporation which employs prison labor (at a competitive rate of compensation) on state land under the supervision of a designated oversight commission or board. This board would (like so many state monopolies in many parts of the world) be charged with grading and regulating potency, upholding standards of wholesomeness and quality, and maintaining cost structures comparable to similar agricultural, marketing and distribution enterprises.
Dedicate the revenues to support (1) state corrections; (2) prison diversion and community corrections programs of all kinds; (3) the adequate funding of public defenders, and (4) the State General Fund at the discretion of the General Assembly to be used to compensate the victims of asinine marijuana laws with job training and placement, subsidized technical and academic instruction, etc.
This would need to be TABOR-exampt, otherwise the surpluses will be refunded to every special interest in the state, as per the state laws passed when the Republicans ran the state.
“No man, I’m telling ya, THIS is how to roll a solid doobie.”
And thinking of Alice B., a constant dip into the raw materials. Cigar rollers have perks of making their own or the ones that don’t cut the grade. Heck, let the felons roll and smoke as long as they keep up their production. How many riots do you think would take place? Zip-ola.
“I know you’re a fuckin’ Crip, but can’t we all just get along?”
Maybe Terry Nichols won’t be so uptight about his veggies. 🙂
Over 120 degrees, I think, and he’d be sinning again.
Let people grow their own without taxation, just like people can brew their own beer. Tax people (via income tax) who sell it to cannabis stores for resale. Let cannabis stores pay sales taxes on what’s sold, as well.
is a testament to the shift in public opinion on this issue. If politicians aren’t ready now, they will be soon.
One of the reasons it’s taken this long is because of advocacy groups being completely insane. Mason Tavert and the SAFER people have run a ludicrous campaign for the legalization of pot, and they’ve even turned pro-drug reform people like me off to their cause. Their logic is fine (marijuana is a safer recreational alternative to alcohol) but their methods are idiotic.
There’s SAFER:
http://www.saferchoice.org/
There’s Sensible Colorado:
http://sensiblecolorado.org/
There’s the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML):
http://norml.org/
And there’s the Marijuana Policy Project (MPP):
http://www.mpp.org/
NORML isn’t crazy, obviously, they’re just ineffective. I shouldn’t have characterized all advocacy groups as insane. I definitely could have worded that better.
I’m unfamiliar with the other two, but SAFER is the most visible around town. I stand by what I said about them, and didn’t mean to call any organizations I’m unfamiliar with idiotic.
Lots of mea culping there! Typical Democrat, will admit when wrong. Good for you.
Wow, pun, “thread”, clothing, Beat term for clothing. Wish I had a doobie.
The shirt is from REI a few years ago and it is VERY decent in this humidity. (Nothing is as good as A/C.) Polyester polo shirts are really good, too, even if a major fashion faux pas for a radical leftie. Next down are Dacron Hawaiian shirts, sad to say. I think the weave is just too tight to breath. I sure do love the look. The hemp and polos have a more open weave. At the bottom, cotton. Holds the sweat and the salts.
Prolly 3-6. Willing to meet with Polsters, left or right! Check out Wanda’s!
Oh, man, so want to see those geologic tetons again. Grab some of the old neighbor’s crab apple wood for smoking, it’s the best. Bring back a bunch of Santiago’s breakfast burritos.
The list keeps growing.
Will do so, forgive the duplicate.
The weed prohibition isn’t working just like the alcohol one flopped in the 1920’s.
Think of the prisons we could empty if MJ dealers/users were given their freedom. The drug wars in Mexico would keep from boiling over if MJ was legalized. And yes, there is the tax revenue.
It’s time to move on and worry about a lot more important things in life. Legalize pot on a federal level and give the states –and parents — the right to go yea or nay.
Regulate it, tax it, but make it legal. Nothing else makes sense. The prohibition doesn’t work, most people don’t have a problem with it that they don’t already have with booze and cigarettes. It would free up a lot of law enforcement to more productive and useful duties, and even if not taxed, save money just from that end, not to mention the costs of incarcerating possessors. There isn’t any real downside.
I don’t think that’s in line with the rest of your party, but you’re absolutely correct.
is that there was a joke, but then the legislators all made it very clear that no way would they even look into it. Nope, can’t do it. Untouchable.
Come on people, grow a pair. It makes absolutely no sense that maraijuana is illegal but booze & cigarettes are legal. None. Nada.
Why can this not be seriously considered? Why can’t they list out the pros & cons and then dicuss if we would be better off and in what ways?
around 58%, if I remember correctly, said they still think marijuana should be illegal, even if taxing and regulating it would lead to more funding for important projects. Even though the unscientific poll in this post makes me look at the Pols community in an entirely different light–48 votes, and only 7 didn’t say it should be legalized, parsing –I don’t think that’s where the country or the state is.
But really, who needs the legislature when you have referenda? You could get a ref on the ballot for 2010 if you wanted to, but I don’t know if it would pass. I think they tried it a few years ago, and it didn’t work, but I think the time is right to try again. Every time they do it gets a little closer.
My point is that it’s a political liability to come out in favor of this, especially considering the current public sentiment. Why should we subject the pols we work so hard to elect to unpopular stances–great “soft-on-crime” fuel for the Wadhams attack machine–just because we’re annoyed that they’re unpopular?
They’re not being cowards, they’re picking their battles. I think that’s smart–especially when we have so many other, more important, battles to fight.
I’m saying they should study it under the umbrella that we are in a world of financial hurt and therefore we should weigh out the costs.
The next year’s budget will be at or more than a billion in a shortfall would be a good way to raise some quick cash
Everyone talks about the income from taxing purchases in state (which would probably be about half of Boulder and 99% of our City Council). And there is the money we would save from not going after smokers. And that would be some nice income.
But the gigantic income would be people from the other 49 states purchasing. Just as some Canadian drug stores make 100X as much from selling to the U.S. as to Canadians, we would have the entire country buying from us.
Until the other states clue in we could pull in a ton of money.
Here’s a headline from the Colorado Springs Business Journal:
http://csbj.com/?dnarticle=993…