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Wednesday Open Thread

by: Colorado Pols

Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 06:37:06 AM MDT


"Straightforwardness, without the rules of propriety, becomes rudeness."

--Confucius
Colorado Pols :: Wednesday Open Thread
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Wednesday Open Thread | 50 comments
Not quite 75%, is it?
"In September of 1993, when Bill Clinton was just starting to roll out his ill-fated health care plan, 54 percent said they supported Clinton's ideas on that issue. Today, 51 percent feel the same way about Obama's proposals," Holland said. "That indicates that Obama may have his work cut out for him in the coming months."

Link.

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

Hey Laughing Boy...welcome to your first day as a non-FP editor
Send me some diaries sometime...I love my new power.  I will even promote the misguided and confused, so far as they write well and raise issues that people will want to discuss.

Not that you resemble any of that...

"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

[ Parent ]
Congrats on the win.
The new election format will give everyone a much better representation of the ideological slant of the blog.


"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  
[ Parent ]
I think Barron can help provide a varied point of view
from the knee-jerk liberalism I espouse, and the thoughtful commentary of ThillyWabbit.  I advocated for having Barron among the chosen.  And I think that Pols was a better place for having you there (and here).

What I said, above, was...

I will even promote the misguided and confused, so far as they write well and raise issues that people will want to discuss.

Not that you resemble any of that...

While I understand it is phrased ambiguously, you can easily read it as LB does not resemble the misguided and confused as you can read it otherwise.  


"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

[ Parent ]
Twitty, what does this post of yours have to do with
Obama's soon to fail socialist healthcare dreams?
[ Parent ]
bitter much?


"Fine, let's take a vote. Who wants fish for dinner?...Yeah, democracy ain't so fun when it fucks you, huh?" - shitmydadsays
[ Parent ]
Not at all.
I haven't promoted or read anything in a long time. Twitty is very, very smart, and holds the snark to a minimum if he (she? - please don't take offense - I just don't know) if someone is honestly engaging.

But having two lefties (and sometimes Barron) as editors more accurately conveys the pulse of the blog.

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

[ Parent ]
Yeah, I think it does, too.
This is a blog that at least has views from all aspects of the political left to the political right but who are we kidding here? The vast majority of folks that post here seem to be on the left of the political spectrum. Nothing wrong with that. I'm one of them. Nothing wrong with admitting it, either.

What I like about this blog is that folks can't be hidden or banned if they aren't from one political ideology or another, unlike what will happen if you are a liberal and post at RedState or are a conservative and post at Daily Kos. And that's okay, too, because that is their setup. This blog is a different set up with a different set of rules than the partisan blogs and I really appreciate that. It's why I prefer this to any of the other state blogs out there.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
What a load
You had every opportunity to affect "the pulse of the blog," like the other GOP editor did. Instead you contributed very little front page content and then decided you were being persecuted or marginalized or whatever. It's bullshit, ok? It's a cop-out.

I think Republicans lose here like they lost all around the country, because your disingenuous arguments and craven whining aren't convincing people anymore. And you haven't said or done a damn thing to change my mind.

[ Parent ]
How pleasant.
I quit posting because one of your little buddies outed me, and I was tired of it.

PS... I still got more votes than you this time around, (I voted for Aristotle) and everyone knew I wasn't running, and you had to nominate yourself.  How do you like them apples?

I actually would have liked to have seen you become an editor here.  I mean that.  Want to know why?

I don't have a need to change he tone of the blog.  I like to debate, I've learned a lot, and changed my mind on a few things.  I honestly think that doing away with the necessity of having a 'rightie' and a 'leftie' is a good idea for Pols.  

Is that not clear enough?

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

[ Parent ]
sorry for the snark...
but what I was getting at was, you keep talking about the slant here when Pols tried to address that. It seems to me you still blame them for that unfortunate incident even though there's really no proof that they had anything to do with it.

If I'm reading you wrong, I apologize. But I do think you've made your point about Pols' slant enough.

And thank you for your support. :)

"Fine, let's take a vote. Who wants fish for dinner?...Yeah, democracy ain't so fun when it fucks you, huh?" - shitmydadsays

[ Parent ]
I honetly think it's a good idea.
If RedState tried to portray themselves as balanced in any way, it would have less credibility than they do admitting it's right-wing commentary.

With two editors chosen by the body of posters (regardless of lean), you get a more accurate read on where the posters' political barometer is.

I think it's a great idea.  No snark.

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

[ Parent ]
As far as blame
I said I take Pols at their word, and it's over.

I wouldn't have brought it up, but JB seemed to insinuate that I quit participating because I was getting my ass kicked in debates.

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

[ Parent ]
okay
Thanks for the explanation.

"Fine, let's take a vote. Who wants fish for dinner?...Yeah, democracy ain't so fun when it fucks you, huh?" - shitmydadsays
[ Parent ]
You've never had your ass kicked in debates
You have gotten many of us to think differently about issues. And you've listened to us too. I think it's the fact that you are thoughtful & well spoken, yet remain conservative that drives some up the wall.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!
[ Parent ]
He may not have won every single debate (none of us do)...
But L.B. certainly hasn't fared as distressingly as a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest.
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but
you still owe me a Guinness.... :)

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...
[ Parent ]
This is going to be fun Twitty
You start right off by slamming LB, how respectful of you.

LB shows how the polling for Obamacare starts off below Hillarycare, yet the new elected guest editor fails to address the point made.

Another point on Hillarycare was the length of time they took to socialize it with Congress and We The People.

If only Obama could slam through his health dreams like a bailout package ...

[ Parent ]
Read it more carefully my good friend Libertad
I didn't slam LB.  Unlike for you, I have tremendous respect for LB, as much as I generally disagree with him.  

You on the other hand...must follow rules and resort from childish name-calling...

"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

[ Parent ]
Just what is your point about Obamacare?
Twitty, did your boss tell you if s/he can put you into a single payer systems that they'd save big $s, cover all the under insured and kick you a big raise with the leftover cash?

With that leftover cash bonus you could pay all the new Obamataxes.

[ Parent ]
Nah, they'll take that leftover cash
and invest it in their business and create jobs, as they should.

I'm really surprised to see that you support the status quo. Do you really think that every business in America needs to be a health care provider, too?

[ Parent ]
I have no firm position on single payer vs today's system
But your assumption that your employer will have leftover cash to drop to the BL is warped.  Anyone's assumption that their employer will drop the cash to their paycheck without any responsibility is in la-la land.

Today providers of healthcare insurance (co's providing benefits) get tax and retention advantages. There is a billion dollar industry built on the administration of this that has been constructed, over the years, generally around union companies needs --- any output of union agreements.

Untangling this is a 40 year unwind process and it won't begin until 60% of Americans get a real commitment (vs Obama campaign style promise) to deliver the synergy savings to the working man and woman.

[ Parent ]
Reply to Libby
Actually, I don't make that assumption. But I do think that not having to deal with health care will save companies a bundle - if only in HR staff.

And I agree that a good benefits package helps with retention, but that's more of a stick than a carrot. As for tax benefits, yes, companies get some relief that offsets some of the expense, but hardly all of it. Given the choice, companies would love to get out of the health care biz.

But I disagree that this is a 40-year unwind. Just because it's been around since WW2 doesn't mean it will take that long to unwind. After all, we've had a single-payer system (Medicare, medicaid, VA) for something like 40% of the population for a long time. If we go that way, we've got a lot of practice.

[ Parent ]
The informed analysis
of the magazine dedicated to free-market leaning informed analysis:

The Economist on health care reform

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...

[ Parent ]
LMAO
Steve'O the story title is

This is going to hurt

Hint: hurting the tax paying worker will not achieve your goal, but get to 12% unemployment and the babyboomers retired and you might just get 50%+1 of America that will go for Obamacare.

[ Parent ]
Read the article,
and notice that The Economist recognizes that single payer health care is the optimal solution, and discusses alternatives that meet the pressing need to pass a health care reform package. "This is going to hurt" is in reference to the difficulty of the challenge, not to the notion that it should be avoided.

You're not economically literate, and yet make endless economic proclamations, in contradiction to the predominant economic analyses.  

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...

[ Parent ]
The same can be said for you and the Economist
the assumptions are 90-100% coverage, a state mandate, no personal responsability to be an economic value adder, no responsability to lead a healthy lifestyle, etc...

I can see it both ways versus your recognition of the sole single payer solution.

My point is a 40 year converstion + new costs to those that fund the current system.  

Your not politicaly literate, nor economically literate.  Yet you make lengthy and endless proclaimations and assumptions to fit your view which you plan to impose on others through your cognitive grooming political strategies.

Shock the system and it will shock you back.  I can hear the screams from abortionists now as their per head charge for services are lowered 5%, 10% 20% under Obamacare.

[ Parent ]
So, Libby,
the 2008 nobel prize winner in economics (Paul Krugman), the magazine dedicated to economic analysis (The Economist), and the dominant analysis in the field of economics are all wrong, and are all...wait for it... economically illiterate, because you (an anonymous poster on a political blog) are uniquely endowed with a knowledge of economics that they all lack?

Yeah, like that's going to fly....

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...

[ Parent ]
Are you LYAO because
you are so shallow that you believe that the phrase "this is going to hurt" automatically means that it is a bad idea? You may want to learn about such concepts as delayed gratification, self-discipline, personal responsibility, and investing in the future.

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...
[ Parent ]
delayed gratification, self-discipline
Like having the resources and future ability to pay for what you want Congressman Frank, Waters, Pelosi?

Obama and Geithner have flooded the money supply with billions in new cash; they didn't pick it off the renewable money tree.  There is a cost to that flood.

[ Parent ]
It's all about weighing costs and benefits,
not identifying either one or the other in isolation. You can't do a cost-benefit analysis by only taking into account the costs. And, while Congress does indeed tend to be very short-sighted, that does not mean that there are times when policies that resemble short-sightedness are in fact appropriate in the particular circumstances. The world is a complex and subtle place, Libby.

Here's a simple analogy: Diabetics should stay far away from sugar for the sake of their long-term health, but in the throes of a low-blood-sugar reaction (due to the difficulties of stabilizing their blood-sugar levels), it is imperative that they eat a large dose of sugar as fast as they can in order to survive. Sometimes, you have to turn east in order to go west (such as when you are driving north on I25, and want to get onto I70 westbound).

We're all in this story together: Let's make sure that we write it well.
http://www.steveharveyforcolor...

[ Parent ]
"resort from childish name-calling..."
Err, don't you mean REFRAIN? One resorts to, but refrains from.
 
[ Parent ]
It's all in how you ask the question
There are some really comprehensive polls out there that have asked about health care reform using different verbiage.  The difference in results is pretty astounding - about 30%, just for asking the question differently.  I think the latest one was from Pew Research.

The public thinks health care reform is a Good Idea whose time has come.  But if they have coverage, they think their own plan is at least "okay".  People on Medicare think it's great - better, in fact, than their prior health insurance - but they already have it and aren't really motivated to fight to expand it; people not on Medicare don't trust it and see it as a huge government bureaucracy.

It's one of the same problems that faced Clinton.  No-one then, and so far no-one now, presented the public with a full cost comparison... The public is left with "government care bad, huge taxes" and "public option will provide competition" without having any firm basis for comparison.  If Obama and Democrats want to move the ball down the field, they need to present a package in clear and understandable terms, including some simple monetary facts.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

[ Parent ]
No, because the plan Obama appears willing to accept does not go far enough
LB, take comfort in these numbers if you will, but the 75% number refers to having a public option.  Currently a "trigger" designed to neuter the public option is being bandied about in the Senate, so, the unease is that without that, premiums will not go down with this "reform" bill.

So is it a surprise that 54% think their premiums would go up if Obama and the Dems buckle under to the Insurance lobby?

As the current bill has a lot of unknowns, it's hardly a surprise that polling numbers aren't particularly strong.  All the more reason for the Dems to hold out for real reform, and not just tinker around the edges.

[ Parent ]
Clarification
... the unease is that with the trigger, premiums will not go down with this "reform" bill.  
[ Parent ]
I could swear that the Diary Title is
"Wednesday Open Thread"

You, of all people, post about being off-topic?  

"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

We do screw this up from time to time...
But our understanding is it is in fact Wednesday.
[ Parent ]
Sometimes you have to make it very clear to Libturd
You might have to tell him them day of the week several times before the day is out.  He's not too quick on the up-take.  He is a Commodore 64 with 16 KB RAM operating in a modern world.  Have mercy on his slowness.
[ Parent ]
You did not just trash the Commodore 64
If my dad hadn't bought me a C64 in 1984, I'd be a meth addict today. Instead of a math addict. True story.

"You need to move past Fourier transforms and start thinking quantum mechanics!" --The Transformers
[ Parent ]
No way!
Me too!  My dad bought the third C-64 available in Boulder when they came out.

Sprites Sprites baby!

"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

[ Parent ]
My parents got one a little behind the curve...
The C128 was out by then. But we kept that computer for a long time. I wrote every college paper on "Bank Street Writer" and printed them on our dot-matrix printer. Early on no professor said anything but I started getting comments later on. (I was class of '96 - guess I should have just gone to the computer lab and learned how to use Word.)

"Fine, let's take a vote. Who wants fish for dinner?...Yeah, democracy ain't so fun when it fucks you, huh?" - shitmydadsays
[ Parent ]
Programming in BASIC, cassette drives, and "Kickman" on a cartridge
are the main things I remember. Copying code line by line out of a magazine... And trying to figure out how I could hook it up to my phone so I could hack into the Pentagon. (Apparently you needed some kind of modulator/demodulator, which I didn't have, but it was the first thing I tried when I started playing with the demo model at Sears.)

HACK PENTAGON
?SYNTAX ERROR

HACK
?SYNTAX ERROR

DIAL PENTAGON
?SYNTAX ERROR

SHALL WE PLAY A GAME?
?SYNTAX ERROR

It was a real thrill when you'd find a command that gave you any other kind of error. :)

"You need to move past Fourier transforms and start thinking quantum mechanics!" --The Transformers

[ Parent ]
I too had a Commodore 64
and a b&w TV with a cassette drive and keyboard.  I wish now, of course, I would have kept that thing.  But I might have an early model Pentium (TM) here if anyone wants lawn art or a target...


"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$
[ Parent ]
I still have a broken Amiga somewhere
which was probably my favorite computer of all time.

"You need to move past Fourier transforms and start thinking quantum mechanics!" --The Transformers
[ Parent ]
The C64 was pretty zippy
If you programmed it in assembler.

Which I learned to do.

Owning that computer probably taught me more tangible stuff than I learned in college.

Shoot, I even programmed a finite-difference hydrologic modeling program in Commodore Basic.

When I use lots of words, they always form an analysis (and, while producing high volume, also produce high information-density).
--Steve Harvey, 2009

[ Parent ]
Wow.
Even Helen Thomas gets it right every 200 years.



"Kevin and I will keep them out somehow -- even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"  

Shocker: selfish bastards are selfish bastards
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c...

Turns out the same South Carolina governor, who didn't care enough about the unemployed to take free money for those in his state, also didn't give a damn about his kids.

"I don't want to blow up my time in politics," he told the AP. "I don't want to blow up future earning power, I don't want to blow up the kids' lives. I don't want to blow up 20 years that we've invested. But if I'm completely honest, there are still feelings in the way. If we keep pushing it this way, we get those to die off, but they're still there and they're still real."

Sorry, why is this guy still around? And is his embarrassingly selfish behavior today really any surprise after his embarrassingly selfish behavior earlier this year?

"You need to move past Fourier transforms and start thinking quantum mechanics!" --The Transformers

He's the walking definition of an egoist.

[ Parent ]
My theory
is that he is trying to make it all blow up so his best option is to move to Argentina.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!
[ Parent ]
Yeah, Josh Marshall says something similar
He's so invested in the whole storybook religious marriage thing that he can't bring himself to end it, even though he clearly wants nothing more. So he's trying to provoke his wife into forcing it on him. That way he doesn't have any responsibility or guilt for it. She becomes the evil one who wouldn't make the marriage work, etc. He gets what he wants and still gets to play the victim.

Already you see various schmucks commenting elsewhere whenever Mrs. Sanford speaks, saying, "No wonder he left, look how cold she is!"

"You need to move past Fourier transforms and start thinking quantum mechanics!" --The Transformers

[ Parent ]
Wednesday Open Thread | 50 comments
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