Notable Links



Denver Internet Marketing by Parallel Path

Knowledge Messenger

Arvada Boutique Clothing Store Stella B's

Bad Political Theater Masked As a "Debate" Is Not An Actual Debate

by: davidsirota

Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:04:03 AM MDT


( - promoted by Colorado Pols)

This is my first post at ColoradoPols - a site I've been reading since well-before I moved to Denver from Montana two weeks ago. It's good to be here - and I'm excited to contribute! - D

Politically, I don't usually agree with the Denver Post's David Harsanyi - but the guy has a really important point in today's paper about the "debate" that happened over immigration recently. "A debate typically entails two sides hashing out an issue with facts, rebuttals and so on," he writes. "Not here. It was like watching my grandparents discuss dinner plans." Exactly - and there's a reason why a real debate never happened. Because a real debate would force the money-drenched political Establishment to confront the very questions it is designed to avoid - the questions of economic inequality that corporate interests want swept under the rug.

davidsirota :: Bad Political Theater Masked As a "Debate" Is Not An Actual Debate
In the interest of preventing redundancy, let me just repost an excerpt of what I wrote a little more than a year ago in a column for the San Francisco Chronicle:

Amid all the rhetoric in the superheated immigration debate, many have forgotten the key question: Why? Why do so many Mexicans want to come to America in the first place?...Many Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to enter the United States illegally because they are desperate to find a better life. In supply-and-demand terms, the supply of jobs in Mexico that one can subsist on is far less than the demand for such jobs...This is the supply-and-demand reality that no amount of emotional rhetoric can change - and in that reality we can find the way to address illegal immigration: by stopping the demand instead of trying to block the supply. The Academy Award-winning movie, "Traffic," highlighted the perils of waging a drug war that only focuses on trying to block the supply of narcotics, rather than on eliminating the demand for them. These same lessons can be applied to illegal immigration. The best way to stop illegal entry into our country from Mexico is to tamp down the demand by Mexicans to enter this country illegally. After all, no wall, no fence, no border security measure can be as effective as reducing the demand for entry. This means reforming our trade policy to include serious wage, workplace and human-rights provisions so that cross-border commerce actually improves the lives of Mexican workers to the point where they no longer feel the dire economic need to break our immigration laws. Think about it this way: Had NAFTA lifted 19 million Mexicans out of poverty as promised instead of helping to drive 19 million Mexicans into poverty, you can bet the flood of illegal immigrants across our southern border would be a trickle instead of the flood it is today.

During the immigration "debate," there was almost no discussion of America's trade policy or how to reform it (and our foreign aid program) to economically lift up neighboring countries like Mexico. Why? Because trade policy is seen in Washington as the exclusive purview of corporate lobbyists - it is not looked at as a human issue. These trade pacts are really investor rights agreements - and ones that have long enjoyed the support of both parties and the Wall Street financiers who underwrite them. They are designed first and foremost to create desperate economic conditions in both America and in Mexico. The more desperation, the lower the wages, the more pressure to reduce environmental protection and the better able employers are to bust unions. The last thing those Democrats, Republicans and corporate lobbyists who crafted NAFTA wanted was a trade policy that actually lifted up Mexico's economy - because if that happened, there wouldn't be a cheap labor pool to exploit.

Even Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) refuses to address how the manipulation of our trade policy exacerbates the problem of illegal immigration he purports to care so much about. When he has questioned our trade policy, he has questioned only its non-economic provisions - but he has carefully stayed away from the more fundamental - and well-documented - criticism of how our existing policy exacerbates Latin American poverty and thus drives up pressure at our border.

I'm guessing Harsanyi, a conservative, doesn't agree with my fundamental critique of our existing trade policy. But I'd like to hope that he and others across the ideological spectrum can agree that the debate over immigration policy has to be over more than just walls, border patrols and paths to citizenship for those already here - it has to be about what is driving the entire situation.

The immigration "debate" we just had was not a debate - it was political theater, and bad political theater at that. If we want to really address the immigration question, we are going to need political leaders that are courageous enough to ask the real question - the questions of why.

Cross-posted at SquareState.net

Tags: (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Welcome to Denver, David!
I look forward to your thoughts.

Paul Verizzo

(yeah, I'm "out" on this forum.)

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


Bienvenido a Colorado
We don't have political leaders who are courageous enough to ask the real question.  We have the dems and the repubs and the corporate structure which controls the most audible political talk and that is radio.  Right now, sir, you are just spitting in the wind.

To recoin a phrase from back in my day..."The medium is the message"...

But, welcome.....


Welcome to Denver, David!
I look forward to your thoughts.

Paul Verizzo

(yeah, I'm "out" on this forum.)

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


Welcome to paradise. :)
I agree with you completely that any real solution lies with improvements in the Mexican economy, and how our trade policies might foster that. Unfortunately, the motivations for preventing such innovations are identical with the motivations for preventing illegal (or massive Mexican) immigration: American Protectionism. Any trade policy which dismantles incentives for Mexican immigration by allowing jobs to be exported to Mexico is simply changing the venue of where the cheaper labor occurs, not the underlying dynamic.

"I, I, I, I do say there Mr. Oscar. That uh, that uh, that uh we are living in a ree-PUB-Lick not in a uh, in a uh Deh-mock-ra-cy." -Foghorn

Hammer meet Nail Head
Mexican economic development is the key issue behind immigration (middle class angst is why it matters far beyond its actual impact)

NAFTA impacts on mexican agriculture in a significant negative manner, so its not just about free trade.  The Mexican government has been unwilling to invest in its own people, its own institutions and its own infrastructure.  Mexican leadership sees el norte as an easy solution to their economic problems.

Personally I welcome immigrants, but I understand most people who don't.  Mexican politicians are letting their gutsiest hardest working people leave Mexico, people that could help them build Mexico if they just would bother to serve the Mexican people.


[ Parent ]
"Mexican politicians are letting their gutsiest hardest working people leave Mexico"
To some extent, yes, but actually Mexican immigrants are disproportionately poor, even by Mexican standards. The substantial Mexican middle class is less desperate, and less eager to brave the frigid north. So, unlike the drain on African American leadership in inner-city neighborhoods as a result of post-civil rights increases in economic (and residential) mobility, Mexico is merely being drained of part of its over-abundant unskilled labor pool. Since Mexican wages are hopelessly depressed (minimum wage being around $5/day), and since much of the State-side earnings are sent back to invigorate the Mexican economy, the immigration "problem" really serves Mexican economic interests.

"I, I, I, I do say there Mr. Oscar. That uh, that uh, that uh we are living in a ree-PUB-Lick not in a uh, in a uh Deh-mock-ra-cy." -Foghorn

[ Parent ]
Let me clarify myself
the middle class angst I am referring to is the american middle class. Fear and insecurity are driving the debate in the US.  Those feelings are legitimate, though their focus on unskilled immigrants may not be the correct target.  H-1B's and outsourcing are a much bigger problem for american workers (I am personally conflicted over this).

I agree laborers sending cash ($20Billion maybe) is supporting the Mexican economy, but what is happening with that money?  Are they developing internal industries?  Are they creating jobs internally? The Mexican government is doing nothing to develop a long term sustainable economy.  That is the failure.

BTW nice description of the bifurcated impact of the civil rights movement on black america.


[ Parent ]
H-1B's and outsourcing...
...impact high school grads and unskilled workers very little.  But the impact of the low skilled "immigrants" impacts them VERY much.

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
Parsing I respectfully disagree
The movement of factory jobs offshore is a very big issue for high school grads. 

wage impacts are very low according to the Kennedy School of government at Harvard.  There is a labor shortage in this country, and if wages for low skilled unpleasent work went up, business would invest in technology to fill those jobs.

One of the biggest problems for low skilled US workers, and a place where illegals do hurt at the margin, is regarding teen employment.  Fewer teens are working. First jobs, summer and after school, are where people learn skills and habits to make them more employable.  We don't think about showing up on time, dependability, consistency and effort as job skills, but they are the fundametal skills.  An illegal may lack the communication skills of a teen, but they usually come equipped with the other skills necessary to get the job done and fewer scheduling pressures.

What makes this worse is that those fundamental skills lead to other skills and teen problems become adult problems.


[ Parent ]
We aren't as far apart as you might think
You are 100% correct about how teens used to use those McDonald jobs to start learning skills. I have often said that there are many secondary effects of having the huge, low skilled, wage depressing illegal base that we have.

I was thinking of offshoring as not impacting them a whole lot.  Maybe telephone customer "service" jobs that they could do here are an exception.


"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
No disagreement.
I was just offering some "dialectic refinement" of the one statement of yours I quoted. I think, in general, you're right on target.

"I, I, I, I do say there Mr. Oscar. That uh, that uh, that uh we are living in a ree-PUB-Lick not in a uh, in a uh Deh-mock-ra-cy." -Foghorn

[ Parent ]
Exciting
I would just like to say "welcome!" I have been excited with the amount of new users either posting or just perusing the site (I admit, I check to see who is online at times and love seeing the new users).

I don't think you are spitting into the wind though. A lot of times at this forum we just end up arguing but there are also plenty of times where good thoughtful points and great discussion arise.

As for immigration specifically: What can be done about the Mexican economy? How do people feel about Mexicans transferring the money they made in the US back to Mexico, especially if they are part of the 20mil (dont have the citation, # could be wrong) who cross the border legally each year as migratory workers? I will hold my thoughts on those questions for later as this is getting long.

To whom much is given much is expected.


Look to the EU model
You are right on the money in your assessment.  For one successful model we should look at how the EU has dealt with economic integration of poorer countries (Portugal, Greece, E Europe) with the wealthy economies of western Europe.  They made it work by integrating regulatory, labor, environment standards along with pure economic and trade policy.

This same discussion can be applied more generally to the wider issue of accommodating the negative impacts of globalization. 


Goals not laid out
I have been puzzled as to why we have been trying to put together immigration reform when we haven't decided as a country what our goals are.  Perhaps I am restating what you said above - there hasn't been a real debate.  This bill seemed more like a list of items desired by various special interests, without any real theme or goal.  What goal is met by allowing guest workers?  What is the point of touch back?  What is accomplished by the fine imposed?  I was perfectly happy to see this legislation killed, because it made no sense to me.

So what ARE our goals?
Coloradopols will just have to do the dirty work. haha.

Personally, my goal is to increase the quality of life in the country of origin for Mexicans and Americans while avoiding a decay in the amount of pay offered for hard-working Americans and Mexicans.

Broad, but I think it gets at everything I think. Maybe we can start broad and then work our way to the specifics. Sure seems like if we at least have a common goal we can move forward a little easier. What do others think?

To whom much is given much is expected.


[ Parent ]
Just 1 problem...
Tom Tancredo is by no means a (D-CO)!  I'm sure it was a typo, but it kind of gave me chills to see!  The thought of ever having that Nativist Psycho in the Democratic party is quite laughable since his views are now the base of the Republican Party!  Yay for the White-Male Twice-born Rich Christian Party!

Welcome!
Glad you're settling in, as it were.  Not only did you find SquareState in short order, but you've managed to find your way over here where you can get some more "interesting" debates going.

The economic realities of illegal immigration are the only ones not addressed by the immigration "reform" bill that died a well-deserved death the other day.  Between the economic issues of Mexico and the lack of enforcement at that most important control point - the workplace - it is almost unbelievable just how completely Congress and the President managed to avoid talking about real long-term solutions.

Hundreds of miles of fence are ridiculous and send a ridiculous (and dangerous) message about us to the rest of the world.  Fast-track citizenship, even with penalties, is also not the answer.  Until we get some leadership that is willing to openly tackle the economic 800-lb. gorillas standing behind them threateningly, we're not going to have a solid solution to the problem.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878


Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?




Advertise Here!
ads@coloradopols.com


Active Users
Currently 15 user(s) logged on.

Search




Advanced Search


Colorado Pols Network


Jeffco Pols
  More >

Denver Pols
  More >





















Stay home if you have flu symptoms. Visit www.cdc.gov/h1n1 for more information.


RSS 2.0



Pols Gets Mobile: ColoradoPols.com/mobile/

Colorado Pols is on Twitter: twitter.com/coloradopols

Email Pols


How to Write a Diary That Will Make the Front Page



Relevant Links

Back Roads to the White House

The Big Media Blog

Blog It Right

Blog For Growth

Blogometer

Colorado Capitol Journal

Colorado Center on Law and Policy

Colorado Democratic Party

Colorado Ethics Watch

Colorado Independent

Colorado Veterans for America

Colorado Legislature

Colorado Lib

Colorado Libertarian Blog

Colorado Media Matters

Colorado Progressive Coalition

Colorado Republican Party

Colorado Secretary of State

Colorado Senate

Colorado Young Democrats

Commentary Today

Coyote Gulch

CU Democrats

Curious Stranger

Daily Kos

Dan Willis-Rumors

Dem Notes

Democracy for Colorado

Denver Politics

Denver Post

East Boulder County Politics

Ed Stein Ink

Election Neutrality Now

George in Denver

Great Education Colorado

Head First Colorado

The Hotline Political Network

Left in the West

Liberal and Loving It

Maintain Educational Standards in Colorado

Mount Virtus

MyDD

National Journal

On Call

Peak Dems

Political Gravy

Politics West

Political State Report

Progress Now

Prometheus

Project Vote Smart

Radio Free Denver

Rocky Mountain News

Senate Guru

Slapstick Politics

State 38

Steam Powered Opinions

Square State

Stygius

TalkLeft

The Thicket

The Bell Policy Center

The Hypothetical Wren

ThomasMC.com

Toilet Paper Online

Ultimate Politics

View From a Height

Walter in Denver

Wash Park Prophet

Washington and the West

Western Democrat



Colorado Pols is wholly owned by www.ColoradoPols.com, LLC
webmaster-at-coloradopols.com
Powered by: SoapBlox