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October 29, 2009 03:40 PM UTC

Thursday Open Thread

  • 83 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one.”

–George Washington

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83 thoughts on “Thursday Open Thread”

  1. I agree that it is standard for the front runner to eschew debates, but with lil’ Josh running as the insurgent (notwithsatnding his use of taxpayer resources and pubic, taxpayer funded office for electioneering) I think that the McChicken theme is something we will hear repeatedly, and something the media will highlight becasue that’s what they do.

    Take today’s Post editorial:

    http://www.denverpost.com/opin…

    McInnis’ stance mystifying

    By engaging in forums, not debates, with fellow Republicans, the gubernatorial candidate will only leave voters guessing.

    Does Scott McInnis really want to run for governor, or is he just raising more money to eventually give to his favorite charity?

    To the dismay of top GOP leaders, the former Republican congressman is steadfastly refusing to debate his primary opponents. “This is probably the most misguided strategy I’ve seen in all my years in this business,” Dick Wadhams, Colorado GOP chairman, told The Post’s Lynn Bartels.

    …Republican voters deserve a chance to see McInnis and his GOP opponents, state Sen. Josh Penry and businessman Dan Maes, make their cases in the real-world environment of debates. Voters get plenty of the scripted campaign-style talking points.

    …McInnis says debating fellow Republicans would only provide ammunition to Democrats. He says that past GOP primary races in Colorado, such as the Beauprez-Marc Holtzman match-up, inflicted wounds too deep to survive. But Beauprez never even debated Holtzman, who failed to make it onto the primary ballot.

    …Trying to dodge conflict on the campaign trail isn’t good practice for someone who should fully expect to encounter it in office.

    McInnis needs to step up. Voters need to hear the ideas behind those running for governor.

    And, oh, by the way, did he ever make that charitable contribution to cancer research?  

      2. DENVER, CO

        FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (10/29/09)

        SCOTT MCINNIS CONTRACTS DEADLY MCCHICKENIDISS

        Virus Ravages Former Congressman

        Scott McInnis, the former Congressman now running for Governor has contracted the

        deadly and irreversible McChickenidiss. Many health care professionals believe

        McChickenidiss is contracted when the human body is over-taken with fear, but much

        about the disease remains unknown. While the campaign has not commented on the

        Congressman’s ongoing condition, symptoms of the virus are evident

        -running scared from debate and open discussion

        -fear of Congressional record and ethics concerns

        – dissemination of veneer campaign messaging about why debates are a terrible thing

        Health officials warn that taking common sense precautions such as participating in

        standard debate forums, defending your record and being able to communicate your

        vision for Colorado under scrutiny are all easy way for other candidates to avoid

        contracting this virulent virus.

        1. That’s not even how you spell “itis.”

          There’s comedy in this, but Republicans just aren’t taking advantage of it. Be funnier. This just looks kind of sad.

        2. Extremely contagious…easily passed from politician to politician…symptoms include swelling head, short temper, delusions of invincibility…probably contracted from HRC.

          McInnis is magnanimously doing other politicians a favor by not exposing them to this debilitating disease.

    2. Speaking of charities……..

      What is ya’ll’s favorite charities?

      I’ll start. Mine is ASPCA and the Humane Society. I give to them both monthly directly out of my credit card account.

      Any one else? What do you folks like to give to?

      Gecko

      1. Free clinics

        Helping kids go to school in Guatemala

        Environmental causes

        Peace & justice

        Local library

        Local (non-profit) Ambulance Service

        Local community radio

        Land conservancy

        and I don’t think taxes are evil

        1. I forgot about the charities that my wife gives to….

          Breast Cancer research and American Diabetes charities. I know like most everyone else out there she gives at the check out counter all the time too, but we give regularly to the four mentioned above.

          I am not anti tax……I am anti raising taxes because “it is easier than maintaining an existing budget” like every household in America has to do.

          I realize taxes are a necessary evil to keep a civilized society civilized.

          1. I am anti raising taxes because “it is easier than maintaining an existing budget” like every household in America has to do. [emphasis added]

            This is, pun intended, a bankrupt argument.

            The average American household does NOT maintain a budget. The average household in America, in 2008, had savings of $392 and a debt of $117,951. The average American household hasn’t had a positive balance since 1945. Check out a NYTimes interactive feature here.

            Credit, and spending money you don’t have, is a truly American thing to do.

            1. my point is that we can’t put our hands out for more money like the government can and does. We have to live with our income as is, try to find a better job to increase our income to help offset our expenditures, or rob a bank……….or like you say, the stupid ones borrow money that they know they shouldn’t and get deep into debt.  

              1. would be reserved for the wealthy few if the average American household lived “within its income.”

                And I wouldn’t characterize the average mortgage holder as a “stupid one.” Unless, by “stupid one” you mean someone who has a family member that gets really sick or injured.

                So we (Americans) DO put our hands out for more money. A lot. And often. And for the vast majority of us, the only reason we can enjoy the privilege of home ownership is because the US Gov backs our debt.

                1. That’s not what Gecko said.

                  Having a morgage isn’t stupid.

                  Having a mortgage you can’t repay is.

                  Anyway, what about those charities?

                  We give to CF, Oxfam, a handful of local charities through a payroll deduction, and occaisionally the 7th-day Adventists (because they do good disaster relief and have very low overhead).  

                  1. He is quite capable of putting together a cogent argument and letting me know if I’ve grossly or unfairly misinterpreted his comment. (No snark intended, Gecko, this is statement of respect.)

                    (As for charities, I contribute, but I don’t do so in order to pat myself on the back publicly nor to reduce my tax responsibilities. I do not intend to imply that others who are listing their charitable giving here are doing either. That’s all I’ll say on this topic.)

      2. 1) Disabled American Veterans. We (I’m a Life Member) provide free counseling and legal advice for veterans to file their claim with the Byzantine Dept of Veterans Affairs. We also operate a free transportation network to get disabled vets to and from their VA appointments, and we spent lots of money on homeless prevention (1/3 of all homeless are veterans.)

        2) Fisher House – provides Military families a free place to stay for extended periods while their spouses get medical treatment & rehab at Military Hospitals

        3) MaxFund. I have two cats who own the house, and both were adapted from the street. Animal Health care costs have gone up as much as People Health Care, and MaxFund provides that at low-cost, along with shelter and adaption services.

        My lovely bride and I always do big donations at the end of the year, so we can squeeze the maximum match out of her employer.

      4. And while financial contributions to worthy causes are always good, volunteering your time works as well (esp. for those who might find it difficult to financially contribute in these tough times)

        Involvement in a literacy program

        Mentoring an at risk child (Big Brother/Sister)

        Volunteering for environmental cleanup or maintenance projects

        No shortage of opportunities here……

        “Here on earth, God’s work must truly be our own”

                                     John F. Kennedy

    3. DENVER, CO

      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (10/29/09)

      SCOTT MCINNIS CONTRACTS DEADLY MCCHICKENIDISS

      Virus Ravages Former Congressman

      Scott McInnis, the former Congressman now running for Governor has contracted the

      deadly and irreversible McChickenidiss. Many health care professionals believe

      McChickenidiss is contracted when the human body is over-taken with fear, but much

      about the disease remains unknown. While the campaign has not commented on the

      Congressman’s ongoing condition, symptoms of the virus are evident

      -running scared from debate and open discussion

      -fear of Congressional record and ethics concerns

      – dissemination of veneer campaign messaging about why debates are a terrible thing

      Health officials warn that taking common sense precautions such as participating in

      standard debate forums, defending your record and being able to communicate your

      vision for Colorado under scrutiny are all easy way for other candidates to avoid

      contracting this virulent virus.

    4. Beauprez doesn’t recall Holtzman debates, despite wounds

      By Joseph Boven 10/28/09 2:30 PM

      Huh? Stating that he was confused by Scott McInnis’s decision not to debate Josh Penry in the primary race to become the GOP Gubernatorial candidate, Bob Beauprez told the Denver Post that he didn’t recall

      debating primary opponent Marc Holztman. “Whatever damage was done, It never came out of a debate,” he said. But Beauprez did debate Marc Holtzman, a vicious set-to between the two GOP candidates that partly

      shaped the race.      McInnis specifically cited the GOP battle between Beauprez and

      Holtzman as his reason for not debating Penry. Sean Duffy told the Post, “[McInnis] wants to avoid mutually assured destruction, where we are giving ammunition to the Democratic Party.” Although Beauprez is now muddled on the past, it takes a little longer to rewrite history. The Colorado Springs Gazette reported on March 18, 2006, that Beuaprez debated Holtzman at the Denver Tech Center Hyatt Regency. During the debate Holtzman attacked Beauprez on a multitude of issues, including his failure to prevent Referendum C from passing. At one point, referring to Referendum C, which created additional tax funding for schools, Holtzman said, “Bob, if anything, this was an issue where you earned the name Both Ways Bob in all the issues that affect the future of Colorado.”Beauprez was unable to shake the moniker “Both Ways Bob” during the election cycle. As the primary frontrunner, he also decided to “reevaluate whether he [would] debate Holtzman again.”. He pulled out of a scheduled debate on the Saunders’ show with Holztman. Holtzman dropped out of the race after the Colorado Supreme Court chose not to hear his case to get on the August primary ballot. It does not appear that the two ever debated again.

      And they wonder why people call him “Both ways Bob” and thus my tag line, crazypoliticians…this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth, much like Penry has taking both sides and every issue. Beauprez did in fact debate Holtzman and look what it did for the party, nothing.

      And why didn’t the Denver Post report that Beauprez did in fact debate Holtzman? They could have slammed him, twice…with the article yesterday and an editorial today, but they didn’t…imagine that.

      I’ll leave it to “Both ways Bob” and “Pick a side already Penry” to keep on running the GOP into the ground. They’re very good at it.  

      1. Did they debate or not? Beauprez can’t have it both ways

        By Lynn Bartels

        The Denver Post

        Posted: 10/29/2009 10:22:56 AM MDT

        Updated: 10/29/2009 01:13:20 PM MDT

        Republican Bob Beauprez this week said he didn’t recall debating Marc Holtzman when they ran for governor but it turns out they did.

        The two squared off in the spring of 2006 at Club 20 in Grand Junction and at a Denver Tech Center hotel at at event sponsored by a business group.

        After the DTC debate, Beauprez’s campaign accused Holtzman of name calling and said there would be no future debates until Holtzman agreed to engage in “civil” fashion.

        But debates became a moot point after Holtzman failed to make the ballot in June.

        This year, Republican gubernatorial candidate Scott McInnis has refused to debate his two Republican opponents, citing the damage done during the Beauprez-Holtzman battle.

        McInnis said he doesn’t want to give Democrats any ammunition.

        Beauprez earlier this week said he was surprised to see his name mentioned by McInnis’ campaign, and he didn’t recall having any debates.

        He also said that it was other events on the campaign trail that inflicted the damage.

        The Holtzman campaign labeled Beauprez “Both Ways Bob,” an image he couldn’t shake. But Beauprez picked up that nickname long before he and Holtzman ever stood on a stage together to debate.

        “Both Ways Bob” was coined in 2005, a year before the election, by Holtzman’s campaign manager, Dick Leggitt. He used it to describe Beauprez’s position on the ballot measure Referendum C. Leggitt accused Beauprez of opposing the tax measure – as did Holtzman – but of doing nothing to try to defeat it.

        Beauprez said of Leggitt: “They pulled out the Doberman and the rest is history.”

        As for debates, political consultant Eric Sondermann in 2006 said the Beauprez campaign probably felt it was was far enough ahead in the polls that it didn’t need to give a Holtzman a forum to “throw grenades.”

        Political consultant Steve Welchert recently said it was a smart move for McInnis to avoid debates because he is ahead in the polls.

        McInnis has agreed to some gubernatorial forums, including one he attended Saturday in El Paso County, and one scheduled for Tuesday at Colorado Christian University in Lakewood.

        Also running for the GOP nomination for governor are Josh Penry and Dan Maes.

        Penry’s campaign manager Mike Britt said he believes McInnis, a former six-term congressman, is afraid to debate Penry because of Penry’s knowledge about state government. Penry is the state Senate minority leader.

        The winner of the 2010 August primary faces Democratic Gov. Bill Ritter in November.

        Looky there, they decided it was worth mentioning, now that people pointed out that they didn’t do their research.  

    5. Recent history how soon we forget.  McCain tried to get Obama into townhall debates when he was behind in the summer of 08.  Obama didn’t buy it, the networks had a field day. The debates came when real voters (not political junkies) were interested. The formats were negotiated between the campaigns and networks.

      By the way to date McInnis and Penry have had two forums where they had opening statements and q&a from the audience.  The press didn’t cover them to my knowledge.  There is a third at CCU sometime this fall.  I’m hoping the press and you can cover this one.

  2. Please follow this link and observe the current president taking part in the return of fallen Soldiers and Marines from The Suck. (Don’t forget to click on the link for photos, and observe 44 taking part in the offload process.)

    http://www.reuters.com/article…

    Now, please, using the depth and width of the interwebz, please find a photo of the Deserter President taking part in any form of MIlitary funeral or memorial service.

    You may begin.

    All you hooting Right-wing asshats can come up with whatever conspiracy theories and idiotic postulations about Obama’s administration…but unlike the previous one, he’s chosen to confront the ugly brutal cost of war first-hand.

      1. You’re right – President Obama left the White House at midnight, unannounced and flew to Dover AFB just for the opportunity to have his picture taken. Strange how this trip was not on the usual White House Press schedule, and how Keith Obermann and Rachel Maddow were not notified.

        No, ‘geek, unlike the Deserter President, Obama has never lined up the troops as a carefully staged backdrop to announce some new policy or to attack the opposing political party.

        This was about seeing first-hand what the ugly cost of war is, from seeing those coffins come off the plane and meeting with the families at the worst possible time of their lives.

        This is something both the Deserter President and his handler Lord Cheney never soiled their souls with. To them, the troops were a handy prop to use in the press, and could care less what the butcher’s bill was.  

        1. This is something both the Deserter President and his handler Lord Cheney never soiled their souls with. To them, the troops were a handy prop to use in the press, and could care less what the butcher’s bill was.  

          What has either said to make you think this is so?

          2. Remember before the invasion of Iraq, some Bush WH staffer left a digital copy of a briefing at Starbucks? The gist of the presentation was “selling” the war? Remember the line “You don’t launch a new product in August?” (Thanks to Andy Card,the WH CoS?)

            The Chickenhawks in the WH didn’t even remotely consider the horrible cost of war – to them, it was a marketing decision to keep up their permanent majority.

            When the bodies started coming home, they ran away from it as fast as they can. Considering how they had wrapped themselves in the Warnography they’d been playing the first few weeks of the war, that was pretty hard.

             

        2. President Bush personally visited the families of killed and wounded soldiers when he could.  And those visits were kept private in deference to those families.

          Has President Obama visited Dover when the caskets have returned their fallen before?  Or is this just a calculated event to try and deflect the criticism coming his way over his apparent inability/unwillingness to make a decision on following his generals advice (one of his campaign promises as I recall) on conducting the “necessary war” in Afghanistan?

                1. Obama’s played more golf already than Bush did.  You may not like it, but it’s the truth.

                  Do you really think that any modern American President is really on vacation?

                  1. has Obama cut, LB?

                    How many bike rides with the secret service?

                    How about fucking off for a week at the Olympics in China?

                    Fundraising in California when Katrina stuck?

                    And on and on and on.

                    Who set the record for time off from the job of president?

          2. …and my point is the same – in the 8 years of the Bush Administration, neither Bush or Cheney made a SINGLE appearance at a Military Funeral or Memorial Service.

            Lots of visits to the wounded troops, and visits with the family. Relatively speaking, it’s the easier thing to do.

            During GW1, I was at Fort Hood doing “stuff” at Corps HQ. I volunteered for Casualty Notification & Assistance training. Thanks to the low numbers I didn’t have to do the dirty deed.

            Someone at Corps HQ had to – a Ranger with serious combat time. He told me he’d rather stand on a claymore and set it off than have to tell a military spouse their husband was dead.

            Having to stand there while a coffin goes by is the hardest thing anyone can do. Going to meet the families of a fallen soldier when that happens is even harder.

            Pres Obama is seeing and feeling the worst of the worst before he makes a tough and significant decision. Maybe Karl Rove and Lord Cheney should’ve done the same before they tried to market the invasion of Iraq.

            1. I have never seen that point more eloquently and honestly made. It took me a moment before I could see the keyboard again, and I don’t want to embarrass you, but seriously…

              right on, man.

          3. Written after the 2008 election, sourced by nothing but the President’s personal testimony, and claiming to have been secretly awesome all this time. Totally believable.

            It’s one thing to keep the visits private; it’s another to keep them secret. “Yeah, we did all these great things without ever writing them down in the President’s calendar. Also the President singlehandedly defeated the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler with one hand tied behind his back. We didn’t mention it to avoid creating a panic.”

            1. …the part about Bush rushing to NYC  personally to rescue possible survivors before helicoptering in a couple of days later to appear in public, all tough and Churchillian. Also previously undisclosed: the W. in George really stands for Winston. And the shot of him diving into a bunker in Nebraska on 9/11 was just photoshopped by his opponents.

              Same with the appearance under Mission Accomplished in San Diego; that fly-boy costume wasn’t just for a deferred Hallowe’en, nor to give an entirely false public impression aboard a ship waiting a couple of miles offshore before docking; he was fresh from low-level bombing runs over Afghanistan, not previously disclosed.

              Coming soon to a Borders new you: His Story: Things You Never Knew about GWB Because He Hadn’t Invented Them ‘Til Now.

              Rumor Denied: Bush’s Autobiography, the one that starts “Once upon a time, there was a little twerp…,” will be found in the fiction shelves.

      2. Cologeek knows not of what he/she speaks. Having once operated in the heart of the news photo business, let me relieve Cologeek of some little bit of ignorance with some hands-on facts. News photos are taken a virtually every event in which a president participates–sometimes by a single pool photog who makes his pix available to all–because people expect to see what the president is doing virtually day and night. Special exceptions, usually for personal reasons, are agreed–but not mandated. Discretion is also exercised, at least sometimes. Your First Amendment at work.

        And now back to our regularly scheduled programming…

  3. Speaker Romanoff has  raised $3288 in the past seven days on ActBlue from 18 new donors. Last quarter he raised 70% of his money using ActBlue.  Seems kind of on the light side.  

  4. from TPM

    Back on Monday, former Republican state representative and now assistant Attorney General Roland Corning was on his lunch break when a police officer found him parked his Ford Explorer at Elmwood Cemetery with an 18 year old stripper from the Platinum Plus Gentlemen’s Club, a bag of sex toys and at least one dose of Viagra.

    1.    So he — like Mark Sanford — found his SoulMate.  

        I’m puzzled by the one dose of Viagra and the cemetery.  Did he really think one dose would be enough to raise the dead.  He should have brought Levitra.

    2. I mean what are they calling “sex toys”?   It could be innocent.

      I mean maybe that’s his wife. Or his next wife.  So what he’s 66 and she’s 18. Maybe he didn’t meet her until her birthday. Maybe he’s not paying for it.  Maybe he’s not a sleazeball.

      “Oh, uh those officer?  Well- I … uh … I carry those around all the time, you know, just in case.”

    3. about what an obscure state representative does with another consenting adult?  Come on, David, as one of the most thoughtful and rational posters on this board, you’re better than this.    

      1. We’ve always had fun here with politicians on both sides of the aisle who get caught in odd situations.

        And you may not care, because it’s not in Colorado, but there’s plenty of people in South Carolina who DO care. Personal indiscretions are always going to be significant and relevant in politics.

        2. you did see the words stripper, 18, and South Carolina politician, right?

          Any time the state that started the Civil War can be embarrassed, I say fine by me. If there’s strippers involved, well so be it.

          1. in every state of the union.  Of course, maybe you’re worried that he’ll corrupt the morals of the stripper.

              As to the hypocrisy, I don’t recall you guys being outraged when Clinton reneged on his middle-class tax cut pledge.  

               We’re all hypocrits from time to time, with the possible exception of the perfect in every way paradigms I seem to find only on blogs.  

            As far as getting back at South Carolina for starting the Civil War, I thought Sherman did that when he burned Columbia!

    1. We need two straight quarters of recovery to get out of this meteor-crater the prev Administration dug for us.

      Things look good, but my wife the Economist is still looking dour every day she comes home for work.

      (Go ahead, ‘tad, I’m waiting for your classless insult…..)

      2. You liberals never give credit to a great American president, who, if “The Shadow of Blooming Grove” can be believed, even had Afican American blood.  😉

  6. I know that a person cannot run for two elective offices at the same time in Colorado.  But when an incumbent declares his candidacy for an office other than the one he already holds, can he then “undeclare” and drop out of the new race and declare his candidacy for the position he already holds?  (first termer, of course)  Is there a limiting time frame in which that can be done?  Can it be done anytime all the way up to the filing deadline for the current position he now holds?

    1. so state rep, say, decides to run for ….governor. Then drops out and re-files to seek re-election as state rep instead.

      Seems like it would be no different than a city councillor running for Senate nomination of his party, then dropping out and instead seeking the nomination to run for US Congress from his district. Or to seek re-election to the city council.  

      So I don’t see an obstacle from a technical rules pov.  As for being a royal douche point of view, it would entirely depend. Partly on how big a douche the candidate was in the first place (pretty big) or how douchey a campaign he ran before he shifted gears.

      the more interesting CO question- that I have no idea about- is whether they guy can raise cash for one race, and use it for something else: another race, a new office assistant, a car, whatever.

      1. That was essentially what I was asking.  The reason I asked is because I’m trying to figure out the truth behind the(faux?) McInnis/Penry battle.  And what got me thinking about it was Tim Foster’s assertion that Penry could not afford be out of public office if he want to satisfy is ambition for higher office.  Now, Steve King has already stated that he wants Penry’s senate seat but I’m thinking if Penry’s poll numbers show him trailing McInnis by a wide margin, he might drop out of the governor’s race and seek his current seat.  I’d bet King would step aside in difference to Penry’s ego needs.  I just find it difficult to believe that Foster and the Mesa County O&G cabal would abandon all their expenditures and efforts put behind their manufactured candidate. Not to mention Penry own ambitions.

        I’ve not looked up the deadlines for filing for the senate primary but I’d bet Penry has the paperwork ready.  It just goes against everything Penry is known for, if he did not. And who knows what deals Penry and McInnis have made?  Penry could have just tossed his hat into the ring to garner name recognition and in the event of McInnis losing against Governor Ritter, it would give Penry a leg up 4 years from now.  Plus, he’d have a head start with cash on hand.  I do see your point about where that money could be spent.  But it might cost Penry all of $500 to win his current seat.  

        All just conjecturer, I know.  But I have a hard time believing that Penry’s ego would allow him to just ride off into the sunset.  

        1. 1)

          Call the Secretary of State’s office- or email them from the site  Ask specifically- filing deadline for State Senate seat- and what’s required to file.

          2) Then call the Penry campaign and ask if Senator Penry is filing.

          3) Then call Steve King and ask him if he’s filing.

          Tell Penry and King you are calling because you are writing a piece to be published in about a week whether they answer or not.

            1. If I read that right, Penry could continue collecting contributions for his gubernatorial campaign all the way up to into May (just before the R State Assembly) before having to declare for his current seat. Going to be an interesting political year. I bet Penry will have one eyeball glued to polls.  And with all his attention being distracted on furthering his own political ambitions, watch for very little in the way of leadership coming from the Senate Minority Leader’s office this year.  Can’t help but feel sorry for Colorado.

              “When you have a losing record, you tend to go through a rebuilding process. But the Republican Party appears to be doubling down on all its failed talent.” -Max Blumenthal

  7. What an interview.

    I ask Pearl to describe Mengele, and her eyes light up. “He was the most handsomest-”

    “Like Clark Gable,” Helen interjects.

    “He was tall and the most handsome guy,” Pearl continues. “He should have been an actor or something and not killed Jews. His boots–they were so shiny that instead of a mirror, you could have used his boots.”

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