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September 14, 2012 03:47 PM UTC

Open Line Friday!

  • 58 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“The Obama camp, the White House, and the media all condemned Romney before they condemned the attacks. Obama thought it more worthwhile to hit Romney for what he was doing than the terrorists for what they did. Romney got hit first.”

–Rush Limbaugh, Wednesday

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58 thoughts on “Open Line Friday!”

  1. 1) Why were there no Marines ?

    I thought the USMC guards embassies the world over?

    2) Did Romney really say the way to get education and a job was to borrow money form your parents?

    3) I love the USA.  I grieve for the dead in Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

    I do not favor invading all those places.

  2. Libya, Sudan, Egypt are separate circumstances. I would like to focus on Libya.  But, MADCO, it is the responsibility of the host country to protect foreign embassies.  The Marine guards have limited capacity to protect against a mob or coordinated attack.

    In Sudan, the government is doing its best to protect the Embassy.  In Egypt, there are some reports that the Egyptian security forces were either withdrawn or reduced before the mob attacks.  It is a difficult situation. Because “peaceful” demonstrations have to be allowed; no government wants to shoot into a mob of its own citizens or bring on the tanks.   But let us talk about Libya.

    Libya is an example of a very effective foreign policy. The US sided with the forces of “democracy.” Stevens was a knowledgeable envoy who spoke Arabic and who was the liaison with the rebels.  AFter the revolution was successful, he was appointed Ambassador and began working with the Libyan government.  It may be that Stevens deliberately did not fortify the Consulate because it did not want to give the impression of an “armed fortress” but rather to display an open door policy. Or, he may have been overconfident because of his relationships with the Libyan people. I believe he was targeted because he was so successful.

    I would like to quote some sections taken from Kennedy’s Inaugural Address because I think they are still relevant.

    Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

    To those new states whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom–and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

    Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

    So let us begin anew–remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

    http://www.jfklibrary.org/Rese…

  3. Ah, bust out the Marine Hymn.

    Ironic, isn’t it, that our Marines stanched the Barbary Pirates and now, 250 years later, are being sent again to stanch the barbaric Muslims.

    Not saying all Muslims are barbaric.  Just the ones w/o respect for diplomatic missions or life.

    In fact, another “I heard it on the radio” moment, that eight Libyans were hospitalized trying to help the Americans.  

  4. Yesterday, boyles said that Rev Wright had once been a Muslim.  That is an absolute lie.  But, boyles tosses off this crap because no one will contradict him….the local medial is scared of him.

    Why is this important?  Because there is the Big Lie implied, if not stated, that permeates the “true believers” like boyles….and it goes something like this:  we don’t know who Obama really is….we don’t know where he was really born….we don’t know who is father really is….we don’t know what he really thinks….so he could be a Muslim – he could be a communist….he could be a foreign traitor…..he could be behind the attacks on American embassies…..and he and Rush let the audiences draw their own conclusions….but the “Big Lie” persists because no one stops the little lies…..like the Rev. Wright was once a Muslim.

    This is the time line that not just Rush but Romney is using to discredit our president in a time when our embassies  and our diplomats are in peril: A diplomat in the Embassy in Egypt send out a statement denouncing the movie that denigrated the Muslim religion….the statement was issued BEFORE there were any attacks on the Embassy…..when the Embassy  was attacked, then Romney, et.al. denounced the administration by saying that that statement was in response to the attacks that happened AFTERWARDS.

    It is a lie.  But what Romney has learned (or whoever is telling him what to say) is that lies work…..and so lying to the American people is the way to win elections.

    1. The people who wield them successfully are charismatic, even spellbinding. They’re believable.

      Romney is not. If he loses this election (and he seems headed that way, as of right now at least), it will be in no small part due to his lack of charisma and his unlikeable personality.

      It should be pointed out that this lie has never really gotten much traction with anyone who wasn’t xenophobic or a chauvinist. Now, America has millions of xenophobes and chauvinists, so I’m not saying that we’re speaking of an insignificant portion of the population. But we ARE speaking about people who are largely disinclined to voting Democratic, regardless of the candidate’s ethnic or religious background. They’re not the people who are going to decide this election.

      The number one reason that the polling is close is because the economy sucks. The number two reason is that neither party looks very effective right now. Things favor the president because the incumbent is always a known quantity and is therefore perceived to be the less risky choice.

      I don’t think Boyles or Limbaugh are as influential as the size of their audiences would lead you to believe. Limbaugh in particular is someone who is very well known and nearly everyone already has a set opinion about him. True influence comes from the ability to persuade the people who don’t agree with you; Limbaugh does not have that anymore, if he ever did.

      As far as Boyles goes, the only reason I ever know what he’s saying is because you and Jason tell me. His remarks never seem to be in the news, reaching an audience beyond KOA’s. The major media outlets haven’t touched any of this stuff since the White House released the president’s birth certificate. The issue was settled for most Americans, including many on the right, at that time.

      So, in short, we have two things to think about here. Lying to the electorate does work – that was true long before the Nazis employed it to their great success in Germany – but the lie has to be believable, and so does the liar. I think we’re safe on both counts.

      1. The people…who are xenophobic and chauvinist are also VOTERS.  To argue that they are unimportant because there are not enough to swing the election is naive…IMHO.

        I don’t think Boyles or Limbaugh are as influential as the size of their audiences would lead you to believe.

        You have an opinion, I have an opinion.  Just tell me why you think that Limbaugh is not influential….as for boyles..he is local (KHOW, not KOA)…but I think he was very instrumental in the huge vote that Tancredo got …at the last minute…

        “True influence” also comes from “firing up the base” to vote and insulating true believers from the truth…..I site the win in 2010 and the fact that the republicans are evidently going to take over the Senate…..even if Obama keeps the White House…..

        Lying to the electorate does work – that was true long before the Nazis employed it to their great success in Germany – but the lie has to be believable, and so does the liar.

        I don’t understand this statement….are you suggesting that the lies the Nazi told were “believable”? I don’t think that is what you meant.  But, I don’t know what exactly you were saying.

        1. Voters in the middle do. That means that we have to assess the impact this stuff has on the middle.

          And I already told you why I don’t think Limbaugh’s influential. It’s right there alongside my statement.

          Tancredo had name recognition, and I credit that far more than anything anyone said on the radio for his election numbers. Which weren’t all that great, keep in mind.

          I will grant that firing up the base is important (meaning that I’m conceding your point), but unlike 2010 I don’t see much of that this time. In 2010 they were all mad as hell about the HCA, the middle was disappointed with Obama and the Dems, and the Dems did not fire up their base. You continue to focus on one factor at the expense of the others.

          And yes, I DID mean that the Nazis’ lies were believable – to Germans in the 1920s and 30s. The “big lie” refers specifically to the “stabbed in the back” myth that dogged the Weimar Republic from the very moment it was declared. (That one was shared and repeated by all right-wing Germans, not merely the Nazis and their sympathizers.) But they did tell their own lies later on, such as that Germany was under attack when the Reichstag was burned, that the German people believed. They said the Jews were to blame for everything, which the Germans by and large believed. That means that the Nazis were believable liars, and their lies were easy for the Germans to believe.

          Hope that clears things up for you.

          And mea culpa for misidentifying the radio station.

          1. I hope it is just an election at stake.

            1)

            In 2010 they were all mad as hell about the HCA,

            Talk radio, read: Limbaugh, was absolutely critical in creating the anger toward HCA and most importantly, helping to coordinate all the town hall protests that helped to the repubs to capture the House.

            2)

            And yes, I DID mean that the Nazis’ lies were believable – to Germans in the 1920s and 30s. The “big lie” refers specifically to the “stabbed in the back” myth that dogged the Weimar Republic from the very moment it was declared. (That one was shared and repeated by all right-wing Germans, not merely the Nazis and their sympathizers.) But they did tell their own lies later on, such as that Germany was under attack when the Reichstag was burned, that the German people believed. They said the Jews were to blame for everything, which the Germans by and large believed. That means that the Nazis were believable liars, and their lies were easy for the Germans to believe.

            The process is called “scapegoating” and, as you know, is an integral part of totalitarianism.  But the parallels do  exist in this country.  There has been an economic collapse from which most people have not yet recovered and for which there is not a coherent explanation that everyone understands and accepts.

            This country was attacked by Muslim terrorists and although we have survived – another attack or the breakout of war in the midEast (that we did not start) or another economic calamity could be the trigger for the kind of rage and scapegoating that allowed the destruction perpetrated by the Nazis…..

            So, boyles, et. al. are laying the fire, IMHO, and let us just hope that there is no spark.

            Now, Aristotle, you are probably too young to remember, but after WWII, kids learned in school how the Nazi came to power and we all learned “Never again.”  It was critically important that everyone in this country was alert to preventing the kind of scapegoating and lies that PRECEDED the Nazi takeover, the destruction of Europe and the Holocaust.  I am scared shitless by what I hear on the radio.  

            PS. Missouri is home to Limbaugh.  He will be the one, I fear, most responsible for putting Ted Akin in the Senate as probably the deciding vote.

            1. Limbaugh no doubt played his part, but the right wing base really didn’t need him to get riled up. Imagine if he weren’t on the air; would the righties simply have accepted it as a fait accompli? I can’t imagine that.

              Regarding the Nazis… My point was simply that having a “big lie” isn’t enough. People won’t fall for the big lie if they don’t already trust the liars. In Germany, they trusted the Nazis.

              Now, people are ALWAYS vulnerable to new Big Lies, and you’re right to be on your guard and always vigilant. And of course questioning Obama’s American birth is a Big Lie. BUT… you have to look around and see how people are taking it. This lie is not new to the scene. It’s been kicking around since 2008, and it was fully addressed by the White House. That has been the end of the story except for the diehards. I have not heard anyone question Obama’s place of birth who wasn’t an already dyed-in-the-wool hard right bigot before anyone had heard of Barack Obama.

              Right now, every poll shows Obama has the momentum, and that’s good news. If people outside of the right wing believed we have a disloyal Kenyan Muslim in the White House, I think that we wouldn’t see that (the past three weeks, which have been horrible for Romney, notwithstanding).

              Now, I agree with you that we have to hope that the Dems retain the Senate and make some gains in the House. Usually, IIRC (I’m not always that good of an observer, so anyone please correct me if I’m wrong), presidential victories are usually accompanied by that candidate’s party making gains downticket. That has me feeling pretty good about the election right now. It’s not great because I don’t think anyone’s predicting that the House will be taken back, which means two more years of GOP monkeywrenching.

      2. I’m right there with you Ari.  All your typing is gonna do nothing to sway Dwyer’s know-it-all prognostication.  So it’s not just Rushbo & azzBoyles air rants that are gonna cost Obama but it also seems to be “his” rudeness in having campaign vols door knock during a friggin’ f-ball game (guess Dwyer really thinks O micromanages to that extent).

        It’s the same ol’ same ol’ in almost every D post — enough so that I just log ’em alongside Nock’s or Algernon’s.  Find they ain’t worth a 2-sec scan and would much rather read a BlueCat contribution to the discourse.

  5. Your beginning lesson will be to read the FMOC presser as we will be discussing the why, who, what, where, and how’s in coming days.

    Think about why is this occurring and what it means to you in the short-term and long-term.

    ….Growth in employment has been slow, and the unemployment rate remains elevated. Household spending has continued to advance, but growth in business fixed investment appears to have slowed. The housing sector has shown some further signs of improvement, albeit from a depressed level. Inflation has been subdued, although the prices of some key commodities have increased recently. Longer-term inflation expectations have remained stable.

    Consistent with its statutory mandate, the Committee seeks to foster maximum employment and price stability. The Committee is concerned that, without further policy accommodation, economic growth might not be strong enough to generate sustained improvement in labor market conditions. Furthermore, strains in global financial markets continue to pose significant downside risks to the economic outlook. The Committee also anticipates that inflation over the medium term likely would run at or below its 2 percent objective.

    To support a stronger economic recovery and to help ensure that inflation, over time, is at the rate most consistent with its dual mandate, the Committee agreed today to increase policy accommodation by purchasing additional agency mortgage-backed securities at a pace of $40 billion per month. The Committee also will continue through the end of the year its program to extend the average maturity of its holdings of securities as announced in June, and it is maintaining its existing policy of reinvesting principal payments from its holdings of agency debt and agency mortgage-backed securities in agency mortgage-backed securities. These actions, which together will increase the Committee’s holdings of longer-term securities by about $85 billion each month through the end of the year, should put downward pressure on longer-term interest rates, support mortgage markets, and help to make broader financial conditions more accommodative.

    Keep in mind, sequestration in coming in January

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/…

    1. ….those Republicans really fucked the economy up, didn’t they?  And damn that Obama, not being able to fix in 3.5 years what Boosh did in 8.

      You even notice that it’s a lot easier to destroy than build?

      You can put your tinfoil hat back on now….

      1. The Fed was forced by previous prolicy failure to enact this unlimited QE3 program because the August nonfarm payrolls data were so weak. Last weeks report showed that nonfarm payrolls rose only 96,000 in August. With such dismal numbers, there was no way that the central bank was going to hold back.

        1. Obama wanted more job-based stimulus. Obama wanted a bigger stimulus. Obama has tried to get an infrastructure investment plan in place for several years now. Obama wanted more stimulus to prevent recession-based layoffs of state workers.

          None of these or a dozen other jobs plans have passed the Republican House, even though several of them have passed with Republican votes in the Senate.

          You want someone to blame – their initials are G.O.P.

          1. Say fool, why hasn’t Obama passed a budget in 3 years?

            Why Obama hasn’t been able to pass his jobs bill …. its because it’s not a jobs bill.  His jobs bill is further extension of big government to divert more private resources. Private business creates private jobs in America …. not the government.

            I’d suggest before government gets itsself all wrapped up in economic development, it get it’s shit squared away first, then stop damaging going businesses and at the same time get out of the way of capital formation.

            The continued diversion of private sector capital to the public sector is wreaking economic havoc on Americas future.

            So where’s that budget bitch? Why can Obama get his Democrats in the Senate and House to pass a freaking budget?

            Isn’t the presence of QE3 a full court admission that Obama’s policies have failed?

            1. “Why hasn’t Obama passed a budget in 3 years?”

              Because that’s Congress’ job. Review your civics, and don’t forget to ask yourself who is in actual control of the House and virtual control (due to having more than 40 members who won’t cooperate with the majority) of the Senate. It takes some fucking chutzpah to say that the Dems can be effective with the obstacle of the disloyal opposition to overcome.

              “Why Obama hasn’t been able to pass his jobs bill…” Besides also not being his job, the House leaders (who are GOP, remember) won’t even let it come out of committee. What the bill actually contains is immaterial; it can either be amended or voted down. Not voting on it at all is not the honest way to deal with a bad bill, so calling it such is a red herring.

              The GOP-controlled House has voted 31 times (at my last count) to repeal HCA, knowing full well that it would never pass in the Senate, let alone be signed instead of vetoed should enough Senate Dems miraculously cross the aisle. Are you really going to allege, with a straight face, that the economy has been a priority for the GOP? (Don’t answer – I know you’re craven enough to do it.)

              I think I’ve just gotten a new sig line from you.

        2. Not one vote to put it on the floor of the House.

          Repeal Obamacare?  Whoa, Nellie Belle!  Thirty three votes.

          Now, what was that about Obama failing?  Short of shooting all the Rethuglicans in the House?

          Hmmmmm…..

  6. The Family Research Council is launching another one of its Values Voter Conferences in DC today. Can’t wait to see the illuminating guidance for America that shines forth.

    Ah, well, I’ll be there with them in spirit.

    1. And repeating them to cheers.  Still saying that Obama’s first reaction to the killing in Libya was to apologize.  They don’t need no stinking facts.  Still fact free and proud of it.

      These people truly have no shame and their values, ethics and morals stink to high heaven. When they talk about family values the family they have in mind must be the Borgias.

      1. a bad mixed metaphor.  But yes, no I don’t.

        (But I have eaten at both the Claudia Sanders Dinner House in Shelbyville, KY–where allegedly the Colonel first choked his chickens…and perfected the 11 herbs and the first franchise, in the old Sugar House, a classic old drive thru type before they turned it into Generica.  

        http://www.deseretnews.com/art…

        http://www.examiner.com/articl…

        Its not really a museum now.  Its a same-as-every-other KFC/A&W ugly drab thing with a cheesy statue out front and a couple of photos inside on the wall).  

    1. Rush claims Obama’s first reaction to the tragedy in Lybia was to attack Romney. Demonstrably untrue.

      All the jump the gun attacking came straight out of Romney’s ignorant mouth, including the calumny that Obama sympathizes with terrorists, that there was ever an apology issued, that the fictional was issued in response to the attack (a double lie, lying about the time line for something that never happened at all), that the American value of freedom of speech had been attacked when even those who stated that they found the film abhorrent never suggested censorship of any kind.

      All lies attacking Obama, his administration and our diplomats. Still the Biggest Fattest Liar on the planet.

      And still no Arap. Nock has been absent too. Poor  ‘tad. Must be getting lonely.

      1. The horrific and despicable events in Cairo and Benghazi that claimed our Ambassador’s life weren’t just cheered as great news by the RNC in general and romney’s campaign in particular, they were anticipated.

        The fact mittens jumped prematurely after the Embassy’s well crafted message distancing the U.S.from the christian lunatics  14 minute clip speaks volumes to the fact the Vietnam era draft dodging coward was briefed on the impending turmoil and had his crass statement ready beforehand.

        The only fly in the ointment was that he pounced too early, between the Cairo protests and the Benghazi assault.

        Nixon in ’68…Told Ho Chi Minh he had  better deal for him if he just waited.

        Reagan in ’79…Cut  deal with the Ayatollah.

        Romney in ’12. Plain as day.

        Direct injection of the republican machine into international affairs that cost the lives of Americans in order to destabilize a region and an American Administration.

        Somebody paid that christian loon to make the film. 5 million dollars.

        As the events unfolded, mittens’ handlers seemingly confused the first demonstration with the still yet unlaunched Libya attack and gave him the green light for his underhanded and undermining statement.

        That’s what now passes for a republican Presidential nominee.

        This is not  coincidence. It’s this election’s October Surprise.

        And it’s treason.

           

        1. have yet to have seen asked of anyone from Team Willard is:  WTF is an “embargoed press release”?

          My guess would be that it’s something akin to a “retroactive resignation”?

          Apparently when you reach a certain level of net worth in the Republican Party, the laws of time and space no longer apply to you?

          1. They are used when a statement is prepared in advance of an outcome, such as a piece of legislation, or pending the results of a hearing. I have seen it done in working with the environmental community.

  9. This morning there are reports that the Libyan government has arrested one or more men that have been tied to the Libyan consulate attack. They also have apparently declared Ansar al-Sharia outlaw and have initiated a military style campaign to go after them.

    If this is true and the arrested men are truly linked to the consulate attack, then Obama once again gets to say that co-operation and police action works, better than the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality of Romney and his advisers.

  10. If you believe the school system you were raised in doesn’t work, that it doesn’t educate students well enough. What makes you think you’re smart enough to come up with a better idea?

  11. Founder of Groton School, and mentor to FDR:

    Remember! Things in life will not always run smoothly. Sometimes we will be rising toward the heights – then all will seem to reverse itself and start downward. The great fact to remember is that the trend of civilization itself is forever upward, that a line drawn through the middle of the peaks and the valleys of the centuries always has an upward trend.

    Good advice for our country right now.

  12. QE3 helps welathy and hurts everyone else.

    Anthony Randazzo explains it better than I can.

    “Quantitative easing-a fancy term for the Federal Reserve buying securities from predefined financial institutions, such as their investments in federal debt or mortgages-is fundamentally a regressive redistribution program that has been boosting wealth for those already engaged in the financial sector or those who already own homes, but passing little along to the rest of the economy. It is a primary driver of income inequality formed by crony capitalism. And it is hurting prospects for economic growth down the road by promoting malinvestments in the economy.

    How is the Federal Reserve contributing to regressive redistribution, income inequality, and manipulated markets? Let’s flesh this out a bit.”

    Read rest of article.

    http://reason.com/archives/201…

    2. You should be happy, Nock.

      They’re trying to help the “job creators” by giving them “certainty” about their future credit availability.

      I’m not a big fan of QE, but given that the government – long considered the counter-cyclical stabilizing force but currently hog-tied by Laffer Curve economics idiots – is paralyzed, it’s the best economic stimulus we’re going to get.

  13. SOS Hillary Clinton made a hell of a speech as did President Barack Obama. Because they understand, because they understand the world, because they understand America.

    I had not yet heard that President Obama visited State to grieve and sit with SOS Clinton and others. President Obama understands the needs of people.

    Very moving. I cry. I am proud of my country, the United States of America

  14. Montana’s constitutional amendment setting it as state policy that ‘corporations are not people’ has a wide lead for passage right now with 53% of voters saying they support it to 24% who are opposed. Democrats (67/13) and independents (59/25) both stand strong behind the ‘corporations are not people’ movement, while Republicans are pretty evenly divided with 32% of them supporting it and 35% opposed.

  15. shot down in court. Looks like voter suppression and union killing isn’t going as well as the GOP had hoped. And as Montana demonstrates, it’s not just lefties who object to the Unions are people decision interfering with their election funding rules. States, including F-ing Mississippi  aren’t passing personhood amendments and they couldn’t even get enough signatures to get it on the ballot in Colorado. Repugs been flying too close to the sun?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…

  16. President Obama has taken away Mitt Romney’s longstanding advantage as the candidate voters say is most likely to restore the economy and create jobs, according to the latest poll by The New York Times and CBS News, which found a modest sense of optimism among Americans that White House policies are working.

    But while the climate for Mr. Obama has improved since midsummer, and Mr. Romney has failed to shift sentiment decisively in his favor, the poll found that the presidential race is narrowly divided.

    With their conventions behind them and the general election fully engaged, the Democratic Party is viewed more favorably than the Republican Party. The poll also found more likely voters give an edge to Mr. Obama on foreign policy, Medicare and addressing the challenges of the middle class. The only major issue on which Mr. Romney held an advantage was handling the federal budget deficit.

    Read More:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09…

    OK, so Rmoney can no longer count on the economy vote, the black vote, the Hispanic vote, the women’s vote, the military vote, the senior’s vote, the college student’s vote, what’s left?

    I noticed the other day a TV that claims “Mr. No Show” Florida Rep. Connie Mack running for the senate is claiming that he will get Florida 700,000 jobs.  Now, what’s interesting is that is the same number Rick Scott has claimed during his 2010 campaign.

    Obviously, Florida will lead the nation in creating jobs, some 1.4 million (about 8 percent of the population including alligators) in the next six years.  Wow!

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