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February 19, 2016 09:15 AM UTC
34 Comments
Thanks for the promote, let the discussions continue!
So, I come from California where craft brewing seems to be a thriving industry. In fact, Sierra Nevada is, I believe, one of the top ten largest brewing companies in the US. How is that possible, given that California has no limits on where beer, wine, or spirits are sold, and why isn't that possible in Colorado?
Many brewers would not classify Sierra Nevada as a "craft beer" any longer. It is mass produced.
That's fine, but they started out that way and were able to grow, as they chose, into a huge player despite laws that you say endanger craft brewers.
So, because we have more breweries here, it will never work? What evidence is there for that? Is every one of those breweries indicated already being sold at commercial retail? How many breweries would become unsustainable as a result of this law? Will those breweries that are currently selling at retail no longer be able to do so because grocery stores come on-line?
Saying we have more breweries per capita comes nowhere near answering my question.
Oh, and you missed a couple where, you guessed it, beer is sold in grocery stores.
Actually I compared the two states you mentioned.
That's a completely fair statement.
Now that we've laid out the facts around the top four states for craft brewing (at least in terms of number of breweries), why would Colorado craft brewing suffer when the other three states allow grocery store sales and seem to be thriving?
There are more numbers to unpack in those stats I think. My day job calls and I am not interested in the back and forth and back and forth. I thought I would post a blog in response to the previous post by the proponents. Besides my personal sentiments and the general perspective of my board and the constituencies we represent I don't really have a stake in the issue. My take is that this is a big benefit to Big Beer and Big Grocery and of dubious value to local businesses.
I am so thankful to live in a community where I can spend almost all my money at locally owned store, often buy locally produced goods, and get to see my dollars circulate through my town. I believe that is a value that is of immense importance to Colorado, especially its smaller communities.
It is an ethic that I embrace as a core value and, yes, I am an advocate for things I believe in.
You have the right to spend your money where you choose. Why won't you give me the same right?
Believe it or not there is more that goes into my decision making than how much you are inconvenienced by any particular course of action that I take. All other things being equal I will try to avoid that, in this case I am not sure they are.
I am glad, though, that you have survived these many decades with the bayonet of government at your neck, a bit like Bataan I am sure, trudging those many feet to the liquor store, maybe even right there inside your favorite "neighborhood" Safeway, Inc.
In other words, you don't give a rat's ass about my rights. Thanks for being honest.
Get a grip. Its a ballot measure V. I stated my position. You stated yours (in somewhat hyperbolic terms IMO but whatever). And no, your 'rights' don't trump every other issue I consider in making my decision. No ones do.
As I noted, I don't think it is good for things I care about in Colorado. So I am likely to oppose it. If you want to make it about ME personally oppressing YOU go ahead. I find it childish and churlish.
PS. Pls point me to the provisions in the US or Colorado Constitution, Magna Carta where ever upon which you stake a claim that a change in Colorado’s Liquors Laws is a ‘right.’
I see a divide here between people from places that have had wine and beer and even spirit sales at supermarkets and those who aren't. All I can say is, since the dark ages, even before my time, that's the way it was in the Chicago area where I grew up and it was fine. I can't get worked up about it one way or the other but if it's on a ballot I'll vote yes. Whether it wins or loses won't make much of a dent in my lifestyle.
Reply to V:
A better and less a-holish approach would be to take the tact of one of the cats. Make the case that it won't harm Colorado's local economy. Then we can trade snarky remarks and memes and facts around the germane point.
No offense but the 'does V like it' standard might not have a broad reach. Because while I give perhaps a 'rat's ass' enough to actually consider your entirely self-centered perspective (and more importantly the issues it contains apart from your woe-is-poor-oppressed-V anger; hence the note that I would try to avoid making you any grumpier than you are 'all other things being equal' clause you can find in my comment above) it is likely that many others don't.
Sorry to be the one to bring you that news.
Let the whining commence.
Rent seeking at its finest.
Actually, Dave, I am impressed to see giant special interests agree on one thing — what is best for ordinarily Coloradans. I was afraid they might be crassly pursuing the bottom line under guise of looking out for consumers. Very glad we've cleared that up.
Like so many of us here, I can see you are pro good things, and anti bad …
… thanks for that!
Now, maybe just tell us what your position is on anything ??
(PS. It's not that difficult to guess. But, some of us would just like to hear if you can, you know, actually say it it sans the AstroTurf rashing …)
You can visit our website. We are polling our supporters and our board meets in April to discuss the ballot. We probably won't make a formal decision on this issue until the summer.
The organization has been around about 2 1/2 years, just formally incorporated at the end of 2015. You can support us here.
You can find a list of businesses, farms, and individuals that have joined onto our lands & water advocacy work here.
We are currently 100% volunteer, and the website is a little outdated. We have three general program areas, and are currently looking to raise the funds to hire a staff person. Our board is made up of representatives from food and farm businesses and organizations.
If the 'astro turf' charge was directed at us, I would say it is unfounded.
Colorado’s Local Farm & Food Economy
Supporting Small Farms & Slow Food: Community outreach and networking online, via social media, and in communities across Colorado.
Colorado’s Lands & Water Advocacy
Protecting Healthy Watersheds, Lands, and Local Food System: Community organizing to build local power that can successfully advocate for the protection of water and land resources.
Climate & Colorado Food Security
Building Resilient & Sustainable Food Secure Communities: Community action around understanding, and preparing the food system for, impacts from Climate Change while lessening contributions to the problem.
________
We have already hosted two major events, and will be back in Denver on March 9th to host an invite-only nosh "Climate Change in Colorado from Farm to Table." We hosted a similar event last year.
And we hosted a full weekend of events and panels looking into issues surrounding the impacts on and from agriculture and climate change.
We will be back at farmers' markets around the state this summer, and are organizing a large 'Solar Fair and Permaculture Expo' in May.
If you are inclined the correct link to send us support is here
I was, honestly, not sure how to fall on supporting your expanded-liquor-in-grocery-stores issue. But, my rule of thumb is to always oppose anyone who wants my support without being honest about what they want …
Thanks for helping me decide!
(You'll probably get Moderatus' support, though — he's both a dumbass and a fan of dishonesty.)
What’s dishonest? I prefer people that are able to state accusations directly and not obliquely. Please elaborate.
As a founder of the Colorado Farm & Food Alliance, its registered agent, and the board president I wrote this article. I posted it in that capacity and hence under the organization's account.
One would merely have to look at the bylines of the articles and blogs I linked to, or surf over to the SOS website to figure out my connection to the organization.
I hope you can all come out to Solar Energy International-North Fork campus on May 13th for our Second Annual Solar Fair & Permaculture Expo: Cultivating Community & Homegrown Energy.
You have my sincere apologies, Mr. Kolbenschlag.
I am a admirer of your articles and positions here.
I jumped to the wrong conclusion about the intentions of your organization. Thanks for putting your face forward.
I appreciate that Dio. Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
But bad beer is the devil's work.
Actually, pk calling anyone who disagrees with you an asshole while calling for more tact in the discussion more or less illustrates the intelligence you bring to this forum. Have a nice hypocrisy
Thanks V. I actually called your behavior a-holish. Not that you are prone to overly personalize things…
Sorry about that bayonet on your neck, a most intelligent comparison to the reality of the situation, indeed.
The difference between pk and donald trump is that trump is richer.
On the other hand, you are nothing but sunshine and cheer. Thanks for the humor, intended subject or otherwise.
Moddy is enough of a free market goy that I bet he will vote for freer choice nd for the beer and wine initiative, Not even Moddy is wrong on everything, though he tries, bless his heart.
As a last sally, pk, I suggest that Eric Garner would dispute your claim that government does not use force. I believe as John j. Ingalls wrote, "Government is force." If you pass a law you must be prepared to use force, even deadly force, to enforce that law.
Your plea to use government force to discriminate in ordinary commercial relations is not new. Infamously, Nazis forbade Jewish shopkeepers from selling to Aryans. (there really is no Aryan race, but 50 million people died because of that crazy belief.) Buying a loaf of bread from a Jewish baker could send both customer and baker to a concentration camp. I'd say that is an example of government using force — a bayonet if you will.
Closer to home, many states forbade blacks from eating at white lunch counters or staying at white hotels.
blacks who tried to buy a cheeseburger from the wrong lunch counter were jailed, beaten and sometimes killed.
Ask Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner whether government is force,
This brings us to Eric Garner, whose case closely resembles my innocent desire to buy a bottle of wine from a seller of my choosing rather than a list approved by a cartel of liquor stores. Garner's sin was selling "loosies" — single cigarettes instead of full packs. You hate the metaphor of a bayonet for government force? Okay, how about a chokehold. Garner died from one — capital punishment for selling loose cigarettes — with no trial, no right to counsel and no appeal. Bayonets .. err, sorry, chokeholds — don't provide due process.
I don't apologize for a civil libertarian position that says the power of government coercion should be limited to cases that warrant it. Laws against rape qualify. Laws against loosies don't don't.
So tell me again why I should face fines or jail for buying a bottle of wine from Safeway instead of a liquor store? Or why Safeway should face similar penalties for selling chardonnay instead of Coors Lite?
I actually respect and support your goal of encouraging local commerce, as long as it stays within the bounds of appealing to consumer's right to free choice among legal vendors of legal products. But we part company when you sharpen that bayonet and force me to replicate your choices. From the Jewish shopkeeper in Nuremberg to the segregated lunch counter of Woolworths, to the tortured body of Eric Garner, history shows me where such seemingly benign coercion can ultimately lead.
Sorry, but local tyranny is still tyranny. Ask Jim Clark.
Godwin loves Tabouli I am told. Try some V and I hope you find some joy in your day.