The forum was sponsored by a group called the Youth Federalist Initiative (YFI), which touts itself as some sort of candidate training organization. The YFI “team” moderated the debate together – three young white dudes named Kawika Berthelette, Austin Rollison, and Evan Underwood.
There were four candidates in attendance at the debate: Weld County Commissioner Lori Saine, State Senator Barbara Kirkmeyer, Thornton Mayor Jan Kulmann, and a guy named Tyler Allcorn who says little about his background other than that he is a former “Green Beret” in the Army Special Forces.
Click here to listen to the debate yourself, or keep reading for our recap. If you’d rather just skip to our conclusions, here you go:
This was a debate of Republican candidates for Congress aimed entirely at Republican Primary voters. With that in mind, we’d have to call Saine the winner: She was the most consistent in her extreme right-wing rhetoric and maintained a single narrative as the one candidate most likely to stay true to her right-wing Republican roots.
Kirkmeyer was a close second, as the only candidate to mention her anti-choice position on abortion and her fondness for former President Donald Trump.
Allcorn has nothing insightful to say about anything; there’s no reason a Republican voter would back him over any of the other candidates based on what transpired in this debate.
The biggest surprise was Kulmann; we expected her to be more polished and prepared, but her answers were all over the place. She repeatedly stepped on her own narrative of being the “outsider” by talking about her decade in local elected office, and she flat-out lied about once being a candidate for school board. Kulmann also had the single worst line of the night when she said this: “I’m an oil and gas engineer, and I’m a mayor in my free time.” Kulmann really wants you to know that she works in the oil and gas industry, but that insistence came at the expense of her other qualifications. It’s not a good look to say that you are a half-assed mayor.
NOTE: What follows is a chronological re-hash of last Thursday’s debate. As always, unless it is in direct quotes, consider all statements paraphrased in the interest of time and/or the prevention of carpal tunnel syndrome.
Photo via the Colorado Times Recorder.
Berthelette opens the forum by talking about the Youth Federalist Initiative, which he says was created a few years ago at a Denny’s restaurant (we’re not making this up). Berthelette claims that “the Youth Federalist Initiative is undefeated with every candidate that we have trained.” This is the first time we’ve ever heard of YFI, but we suppose that could be true.
Before we can get to the rules, Berthelette starts out with a prayer. After a few words and an “in Jesus’s mighty name, amen,” we’re ready to get started. Berthelette explains that questions were submitted by Patreon subscribers and chosen by the moderators (Patreon is a social media subscription app of some kind).
NOTE #2: We’re transcribing here from an audio recording available via FYI’s Facebook page. There was a lot of dead air at the beginning of the recording; the times listed below correspond to the listed times on the recording.
15:40: Rollison reads a note from Jewels Gray explaining her absence tonight. Gray writes that she loves the organization and went through its candidate training, but she can’t attend tonight because she was already booked as a wedding photographer.
16:20: One of the candidates is asked to “come on down” to the microphone. It’s not clear who is being addressed until we hear Lori Saine’s voice. Here’s her opening statement:
“So, the Brandon administration is promoting government dependence with endless inflation-inducing government handouts.” Yes, she literally says “the Brandon administration” when referencing President Joe Biden’s administration.
“Our schools are woke, and our energy industry is being crushed and consolidated to the point that mirrors Venezuelan-like control. Our America is in a death struggle between two ideologies: Those who wish for us to be reliant on government, and those who yearn to be free.”
Saine says that we are in the midst of a battle over “a cultural dependence versus our god-given inheritance – a culture of opportunity. Increasingly we have government [sic] and representatives in that government on both sides of the aisle that vote to weld the shackles ever more tightly around our freedom.” The metaphors are thick with this one.
Saine talks about freedom, limited government, the free market, yada, yada. She’s all about “putting the onus on personal responsibility rather than making the government your nanny, and equal treatment under the law, rather than voting with crony corporates.”
“I am the only candidate with a voting record you can trust,” says Saine. “An A+ (rating) on the Principles of Liberty scorecard. As a House champion of the Colorado Union of Taxpayers, you can count on me to represent YOU in Washington. Because I don’t just say it – I do it.
“And I am proud to live and serve in a county that has a sheriff that truly makes Weld County a sanctuary county by not enforcing the unconstitutional red flag law in his jurisdiction. And I am proud to be fighting (with) a lawsuit to repeal that red flag law.” There aren’t a lot of segues here – Saine just rattles off one talking point after another.
“And when we take over Congress, I will stop Joe Biden and his unconstitutional policies. And I will not stop fighting, because once we take Congress over, the Brandon administration will do everything they can to pass laws by Executive Order. And you need somebody strong who will hold both party’s feet to the fire to roll back socialism.”
Saine concludes by saying that she is “the only candidate that has won principled victories considered impossible while in the triple minority.” We’d explain this if we could. Since Saine was always in the minority during her time in the legislature, we’re not sure what sort of right-wing “victory” she might have achieved.
18:47: Jan Kulmann is next.
“I’m Jan Kulmann. I’m an engineer with Whiting Petroleum. I’m the mayor of the City of Thornton, and I’m a mom of two teenagers.”
This is very instructive. Notice that Kulmann lists her oil and gas industry employment first and foremost.
“We need outsiders to shake things up and get things done.” This doesn’t make much sense given that Kulmann has been a local elected official for nearly a decade, but she sounds determined to position herself as the “outsider.”
“I got involved because of my kids. As a working mom, I couldn’t volunteer in the classroom. So instead, I ran for the school board. I wanted to do more, so I ran for the city council in 2013. I fought a recall in 2016. I ran for re-election and won in 2017, and Mayor in 2019.”
This is all fine, but then Kulmann gets weird: “And through it all, I’ve kept my day job. I’m an oil and gas engineer, and I’m a mayor in my free time. Now I want to be a Congressperson in my free time!”
No doubt the people of Thornton will be thrilled to learn that Kulmann thinks of the job of Mayor as more of a hobby. That last sentence is also hard to understand – is she saying that she’s going to keep her oil and gas job if she is elected to Congress? That would be odd.
Anyway, back to the narrative: “We need more outsiders in Congress. People who work in our communities and serve in our communities. If we keep putting up insiders and career politicians, we can expect more of the same.” Again, Kulmann has been in elected office since 2013.
Kullman brings up the bogeyman, Nancy Pelosi, then she shits on Adams County: “I love being in Weld County. There is a sense of freedom here that is sometimes missing in Adams County.” Um, okay.
“When I look at how broken things are in DC, I look at the values that my parents and my grandparents taught me: Hard work, honesty, faith, compassion, and respect. Career politicians have abandoned these values. I won’t.”
Kulmann concludes by mentioning inflation, energy independence, supporting police and military, and “keeping America safe.”
Jan Kulmann sounds like a robot reading from a polling memo. She recites her rhetoric with little emotion or humanity.
Kulmann closes by reminding us, again, that she works in the oil and gas industry. “You see, I’m an engineer, and when I see a challenge, I find a solution.”
21:04: Tyler Allcorn takes the microphone. He says he is a former Green Beret who served four deployments in Iraq and Syria, then talks about the “radical policies of Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi.”
Allcorn hits on the need to cut spending; energy independence; fighting crime; and supporting police officers and the military. “Trump was right,” he says. “It starts with a wall on our Southern border.”
Allcorn apparently thinks it is the year 2016.
Allcorn says that Joe Biden “caused, essentially” the botched Afghanistan withdrawal, then pivots to a very vague statement about how “we need to do more” for veterans.
“My name is Tyler Allcorn, and I’m running to be your representative here in district 8. It’s time to send in a Green Beret. Thank you.”
It’s time to send in a Green Beret. We can’t decide if this is a good line or just a creepy one.
23:15: Barbara Kirkmeyer wraps up the opening statement round.
“So, are we ready to fire Nancy Pelosi and ready to…” She stammers for a moment, cut off by the sound of two people applauding. “Seriously, and ready to beat back that crazy Joe Biden’s liberal agenda? Because I know I am!”
Kirkmeyer’s opening statement is not all that different from those that came before. Buzzword, buzzword, Biden, freedom, buzzword, Pelosi, buzzword.
“We don’t need a representative who’s going to go to Washington DC just to make a point. We need a congresswoman who can go there and make a difference. My campaign slogan is, ‘a conservative fighter who wins.’”
That’s probably a shot at Saine, but Kirkmeyer could also be talking about Congressperson Lauren “Q*Bert” Boebert.
Before winning election to the State Senate in 2020, Kirkmeyer served several terms as a Weld County Commissioner. She says that, “we’re the only county – and I led my county – to being debt free while reducing taxes. Property taxes, in Weld County.” Fact check!
Now it’s time to talk about guns.
“When Democrats passed anti-gun legislation, the red flag law, I worked with the Sheriff to make Weld County a second amendment sanctuary,” she says, echoing something Lori Saine mentioned earlier. “Because no way, no how was I going to enforce a law that is unconstitutional. Not what we’re gonna do.”
Kirkmeyer pivots toward other laws that she doesn’t obey. “When Governor Polis issued lockdowns and mandates during COVID, it was Weld County, it was me who told Gov. Polis, ‘no way, we’re not doing that. We’re not gonna follow and we’re not going to enforce your executive orders because we don’t think they’re enforceable.”
The Republican Party is the party of law and order…if they approve of the laws.
Interestingly, Kirkmeyer is the first candidate to mention the issue of abortion. “I am solidly pro-life,” she says. “I am the only candidate who spoke at the March for Life. I am the only elected official who spoke at the March for Life.”
Again, it is very clear that none of these candidates are thinking about the General Election at all.
25:45: Let’s get to our first question. It’s hard to tell which moderator is reading which question, so we’re not going to try to differentiate between them. Here’s the question: “In 2021, East Coast Republicans showed that it is possible to make parents a viable Republican voting demographic. What is your plan to galvanize parents against radicals in our education system?”
26:10: Allcorn goes first. He says, “we need to stand up.”
“So for me, it’s about support,” he continues, “If you don’t start supporting, you’re not going to get to where you need to be.”
Allcorn supports supporting. Very good.
26:45: Your turn, Lori Saine:
“So, in 2013, I fought against a comprehensive sex ed bill,” she begins. “And it’s the same thing that [Florida] Gov. [Ron] DeSantis is taking heat for now.” That doesn’t sound right, but continue…
“What I fought for – and honestly, I had to turn to the Chair, who gaveled me down, I said, ‘I’m reading your bill.’ They were so ashamed of it, they didn’t even want it read out loud. The amendment I was able to get on after reading that portion that was so heinous was exempting K [kindergarten] through 3rd [grade] from the sex ed bill. That still holds today and through the 2019 bill.”
Saine seems to be taking credit for exempting grades K-3 from sex education. Apparently there was a time in Colorado when we taught sex education to first graders.
“I fought to get people on school boards,” says Saine, before wandering off on a strange tangent. “The other thing we need to do is not just get one person on the school board, but if you do, make sure you come around that person. Because liberals beat them to death.” We’re assuming that’s a metaphor.
Saine says local control is how we change the curriculum in public schools. “Let’s support people, get them on those boards, and come around them constantly.” Gross.
27:58: Jan Kulmann…
“I talked about being on a school board,” says Kulmann. “I was the board President for a charter school in the City of Thornton for six years.”
WHAAAAAA???
Kulmann earlier said that she “ran for school board” in the late 2000s. Now she is amending that to say that she served on the board of a charter school. THESE THINGS ARE NOT THE SAME. No reasonable person would consider “being on the board of a charter school” to be comparable to “running for the school board.” This is some Heidi Ganahl-level exaggeration.
Kulmann then mentions the 2021 school board elections, in which she was definitely NOT a candidate. “I helped get the only conservative candidate elected to the school board in my city,” she says. “And it’s something I’m extremely proud of. She’s actually the wife of one of my police officers in the City of Thornton.”
She’s actually the wife of one of my police officers. That’s a really, really weird way to talk about this situation.
29:01: Barbara Kirkmeyer is next. She says the first thing she would do if elected is to tell the Department of Justice that parents are not domestic terrorists. She also notes that she has carried bills for parental choice as a State Senator.
Then she says this: “We talk about COVID. The silver lining of COVID is (that) for the last two years, parents have basically been their kids’ teachers.”
Perhaps the phrase “silver lining” means something different to Kirkmeyer than it does to the rest of us.
“Our public school system is failing our kids right now,” she continues. “Kids can’t read at the third grade level. They can’t do math at the 8th grade level.” This seems overly broad.
30:15: “This next question is going to go to Commissioner Saine,” says one of the moderators. For some reason, this causes laughter from the moderators. Someone else says, “Representative Saine.”
“Sorry, I meant Representative Saine,” corrects the initial speaker. This is, in fact, incorrect. Saine has been a Weld County Commissioner since 2021.
“Just call me whatever,” says Saine. This leads to some obnoxiously-loud laughter from the moderators.
Eventually we hear the question, which is about how each candidate’s experience best prepares them to attract voters in a swing district.
30:45: “You’ve got to turn out the base to make those numbers work,” says Saine, leaning in to her narrative as the rightiest of the right-wingers. This is also a good point for Saine to make since she will likely ONLY be able to turn out base voters. Saine says she has voted with the “party principles,” and “certain people have gotten ‘Fs’ on those same scorecards.” She does not name those people.
“The other thing is that I’ve gotten a lot of things done that the independent moms out there will really like,” she says. Saine talks about allowing foster kids to get a driver’s license and “getting the DUI felony crime law passed.” She doesn’t elaborate, so we can’t help much with this.
32:00: Allcorn uses this opportunity to remind everyone that he is a former member of the U.S. Special Forces. His answer includes something about winning hearts and minds in communities. He says we need to fight back against laws supported by Yadira Caraveo “taking fentanyl from a felony crime down to a misdemeanor,” which is not accurate.
33:00: Kulmann: “So when you talk about experience and winning a swing district, that’s all I’ve ever done. Winning city council, and even the school board, was done in a blue county.”
Kulmann is having a hard time threading this needle. She’s been positioning herself as the “outsider,” yet she keeps talking about all of her victories as a candidate for local office.
“The last 15 years of my oil and gas career, I’ve actually worked in Weld County,” she says. Did you know that Jan Kulmann works in the oil and gas industry? Because she totally does!
Kulmann goes on about how you need to win Republican, Independent, and Democratic votes, then concludes with a half-hearted attempt at a fiery statement: “Yadira Caraveo actually lives in the City of Thornton, right down the street from me, and I can’t wait to show her what it’s like to lose to the real Congresswoman.”
Does Kulmann think Caraveo is already in Congress? This makes no sense.
34:06: Kirkmeyer says her first political race was against an incumbent Democrat, and she outworked him.
“I beat him by 400 votes,” she says. “It was close, and it was worth it.” Would it have not been worth it if she won by a larger margin?
Kirkmeyer boasts that in her last race, she outperformed then-President Donald Trump and then-Senator Cory Gardner in three counties. You know who else outperformed Trump and Gardner in 2020? EVERYONE who won an election in 2020.
35:15: Next question: “What would you do to lower the price of crude oil aside from increasing domestic production?” This is the kind of question you would expect from a more hostile group of moderators – not from people who are already in the tank for Republicans. This is a land mine.
35:40: Kulmann says she loves this question because she wants to address people saying there are 9,000 oil and gas permits not being used [Fact Check: TRUE!]. Says she’s worked in the oil and gas industry for 23 years – in the U.S., Africa, Israel, and Canada.
“There are lots of opportunities to partner with countries that actually care about freedom and care about doing the right thing,” says Kulmann, meaninglessly.
“I know you say, ‘other than increasing domestic production,’ (but) that’s the first thing we need to do,” she continues. “Those 9,000 permits mean nothing, because we can’t get the oil and gas to market. We don’t have the pipelines, we don’t have the trucks, and we don’t have the permits on the surface of the federal lands. So we can’t actually do anything with it.”
In other words, Kulmann just affirmed claims from critics that the oil and gas industry is sitting on thousands of unused drilling leases. Whoops!
Kulmann, the oil and gas industry worker, concludes with this gibberish: “But what we can do is work with partners like Canada, work with Israel, and make sure that we have a true partnership to bring energy independence, not just for America, but also for the Europeans.”
If you think it sounds like Kulmann didn’t answer the question…you’re right. She didn’t.
36:32: Kirkmeyer. “A year ago we were energy independent. Now we’re energy dependent.” She says Biden shut down the Keystone pipeline, which killed 11,000 jobs and “600-800 thousands of barrels coming our way.” She also says Biden shut down drilling on federal lands.
The rest of Kirkmeyer’s answer is silly. She wants to “get those permits back up and running.” You mean, the permits that aren’t being used?
“It’s also about ensuring oil and gas producers that there is stability and security when they do get up and running,” says Kirkmeyer. “Because you can’t just stand up a rig and expect it to all of a sudden start pumping oil. You can’t expect people to invest in an industry that they don’t have any stability in, or any security in, because of the harsh regulations that come down from the federal government. So we would have to look at those issues as well.”
37:40: Allcorn says we have to be energy independent. He says the policies of the Biden administration and Nancy Pelosi are destroying the oil and gas industry “and other industries as well.”
Allcorn adds that coal and oil account for 70% of our energy, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. He concludes with something vague about reducing taxes on energy producers.
38:47: Lori Saine says that President Biden declared war on the energy industry. “One way you can get gas prices down is to get Biden out of office, right?”
“How about we go ahead and put a tax on electric vehicles so that they can start paying their fair share?” she says. “And maybe we should be reducing taxes on our fuel.”
People who use electric vehicles should be paying more money for all the gas that they DON’T use? Makes sense.
“There’s a lot of things we can do to get government out of the way,” says Saine. “But first of all, weakness provokes aggression. That’s what the very weak leadership of Biden is doing. Not only is that sending signals from Russia to Ukraine, which by the way makes some sort of xenon gas that’s perfect for semiconductors, and China just happens to be threatening Taiwan which makes our semiconductors. Anybody see a problem with that?”
Whatever you say, Lori.
40:10: Here’s another land mine of a question from the moderators: “If elected, will you vote for a patriotic education bill with curriculum from the 1776 commission, and if so, how important of a priority do you think passing that should be?”
40:22: Kirkmeyer is lost, as are we. “I’m just going to say I’m not exactly sure what that is.”
The moderator then re-reads the question, as though it will make more sense if he just repeats it slower. Kirkmeyer again says that she doesn’t know anything about the patriotic education bill.
The moderator tries to explain that this was a Trump administration idea to promote pro-American history and oppose Critical Race Theory. It doesn’t sound like the moderator even understands the question.
Nevertheless, this is enough for Kirkmeyer: “With that explanation, I can tell you that, yes I would vote for that and yes I would support that. Absolutely that would be something that I would support and follow through on and learn more about.”
Barbara Kirkmeyer just promised to support legislation that nobody in the room can even explain. Great work!
42:00:Allcorn is on board, too: “Absolutely I’d vote for that,” he says. Vote for what?
Alcorn then talks about how he opposes Critical Race Theory, but that children need to learn all of our nation’s history. These two things do not go together.
He concludes with this: “American history is the basis of why we’re so patriotic. It’s the basis of why we’re so proud as a nation.”
Righto!
43:10: Saine tries to make a joke. “Stop asking these hard questions,” she smirks.
You know what’s coming next…
“Yes, I would definitely vote for that bill,” says Saine. Three candidates have now promised to support a bill that nobody can even explain.
44:35: To her credit, Jan Kulmann is the only candidate who has the sense to hesitate. “So, I think what you’re asking is for us to vote for a bill that we haven’t read yet,” she says. “Don’t we have too much of that in Congress already?”
Kulmann should have stopped there, but she really wants to talk about meeting recently with Betsy DeVos about her “parent’s bill of rights.” Her rationale is…odd.
“We have one for flying on airplanes, a passenger bill of rights,” marvels Kulmann. “Why don’t we have one for parents? A parent’s bill of rights?”
If you can do it on an airplane, you should be able to do it in a classroom!
45:40: New question: Russia, China, and Iran make up “the new axis of evil. Which country poses the greatest threat to the U.S. and what can Congress do?”
46:04: Allcorn says that all three are different threats, then adds something about China sending fentanyl across the Mexican border and killing two Coloradans a day.
Allcorn has a brilliant plan: “Start passing policies to make sure those threats aren’t there anymore. That’s what I would do as a congressman.”
The best way to protect the United States from foreign threats is to pass policies that protect the United States from foreign threats. Bam!
47:20: LoriSaine opens with this: “Sanctions, sanctions, sanctions. Economic and otherwise. And also, closing the border might be nice.” What does this have to do with the question? Who knows!
Saine says we should keep our promises, noting that the United States and the United Kingdom said they would protect Ukraine in case it was nuked. Duly noted.
48:25: Jan Kulmann is getting tough: “I’m going to be very clear: We are in this situation because our President is a weak leader…and nobody is afraid of us anymore.”
Cool story, Jan. Now how about answering the question?
Kulmann says the real danger is if Russia, China, and Iran form like Voltron and become a super enemy. Is anybody going to actually answer the question?
49:26: Not Barbara Kirkmeyer! “We do have a weak leader in Joe Biden,” she says, apropos of nothing at all. She rattles off buzzphrases like “energy independence,” “secure our borders,” and “fund our military.”
“And finally, we need to stop deficit spending and get inflation under control so that China doesn’t call on the debt that we have.”
This would be a fine answer if the question had been, “Just say something about China.” Alas, it was not.
51:00: The moderator wants to shift to a more “lighthearted question” to learn more about each candidate and their personality. Naturally, that question is this: “Who is your favorite President and why?”
Fifty bucks says every candidate answers “Ronald Reagan.”
51:30: We’re 1 for 1! Lori Saine says Ronald Reagan, because “he knew how to lead across the aisle.” This is an interesting statement from someone who has made it perfectly clear that she has no intention of ever working with Democrats on anything.
52:40: Kulmann has three favorites, which is consistent with her refusal to ever answer a direct question. She likes Reagan, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln.
53:30: And we’re 3 for 3! Kirkmeyer says Ronald Reagan.
“But I’ll also say this,” says Kirkmeyer. “Donald Trump. He was a darn good President. He got a really bad rap in a lot of places.” Her argument in favor of Trump is that he was a great orator.
Give Kirkmeyer credit on one hand: She is smart to mention Trump in a debate aimed solely at a Republican Primary audience.
54:40: Allcorn breaks the streak. He likes George Washington.
55:50: Now it’s time for two minute closing statements.
Kirkmeyer goes first. She says she grew up on a dairy farm and owned a small business. She has had lots of different experiences, which means she’ll be good at Congress.
Kirkmeyer pretends that she doesn’t really want to run for Congress, but liberals are bad, so she is stepping up.
“We defund the police,” she says. “We have Critical Race Theory. Men pretending to be women to win a race. It’s enough to make your head spin.”
Indeed.
58:30: Allcorn concludes by telling a story (sort of) about his first trip to Iraq to fight against ISIS. “At that moment I realized that I was a warrior diplomat more than anything.”
Allcorn says he’ll take lessons he learned fighting against ISIS to Congress. We have no idea what this means.
1:00:30: Lori Saine sticks to her narrative. “Everyone is a conservative in the primary,” she says. She claims that Republicans are very angry at their own party – at people who say one thing and then do another.
Her basic point is that you know what you’re getting if you vote for her, which is not untrue.
“And I will beat Joe Biden down,” she concludes, metaphorically. Probably.
1:03:00: Kulmann is back to her initial pivot: “We need more outsiders in Congress,” she says, not repeating the fact that she has been in elected office since 2014.
Kullman nods at issues such as education, cost of living, and safety, then wraps up with this: “America cannot rely on Russia and China. We must be energy independent.”
Let’s not tell her that the United States no longer imports oil from Russia. We should also not mention that China is actually the world’s foremost importer of crude oil. Other than that, her point is perfect.
One thought on “Debate Diary: Not So Great in CO-08”
At 38:47 – Lori Saine should probably know that the mongo Colorado transportation bill SB 21-260 actually put a new fee on electric vehicles. It's not to tax the gas not used, it's to get EV owners to more equitably contribute to the expenses of providing a roadway system. I know she's running for federal office and 260's a state bill, and maybe she answered the question strictly focused on what the feds oughta do. But charging EV owners is not a new idea, and I'd question why adjusting EV charges ought to lead to decreases in gas prices or gas taxes anyway.
March 30, 2022 12:37 PM UTC
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Republican candidates for Congress in the new CO-08 got together last Thursday for a 
At 38:47 – Lori Saine should probably know that the mongo Colorado transportation bill SB 21-260 actually put a new fee on electric vehicles. It's not to tax the gas not used, it's to get EV owners to more equitably contribute to the expenses of providing a roadway system. I know she's running for federal office and 260's a state bill, and maybe she answered the question strictly focused on what the feds oughta do. But charging EV owners is not a new idea, and I'd question why adjusting EV charges ought to lead to decreases in gas prices or gas taxes anyway.