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August 31, 2009 05:40 PM UTC

Are unions relevant today? (How are humans valued?)

  • 17 Comments
  • by: richardmyers

I started a thread within the “Romanoff To Challenge Bennet?” comments, which i’d like to extract and revive. The original discussion is here: http://www.coloradopols.com/sh…

David writes,

Reduced union membership is due to a changing world where the unions did not keep up. I work in the high-tech world and I have never heard anyone there wish we had a union.

I think the main reason why is that in manufacturing, construction, etc. your most productive employee is about twice as efficient as your least. So everyone treated and paid the same works. But in a lot of businesses today (software, engineering, etc) your most productive employee is 10 – 100 times more productive.

Now in Hollywood the unions figured that out. They represent Stephen Spielberg as well as someone directing their first TV episode. But they set it up in a way that handled that 100X difference in value of each person.

In my view, the flaw in this thinking is equating productivity with value. It is a perceptual thing; one can accept that workers have a certain monetary value to the corporation, based upon what they contribute to the bottom line.

But i contend that a society that views workers in this way is dystopian and has lost its soul; why should we not prefer, as the more humane measure of our worth, the value that individuals place upon their own lives?

In my role as a deputy secretary for a grocery workers’ union, i have met an individual (let us call him George) who is fully capable (after a lifetime of good work ethic) of performing on the job. His only crime is one that all of us may wish to endure (considering the alternative): he has reached the age of sixty or so, and he no longer drives. He was transferred by the company to a store far away from where he lives. It happens that there is no bus after 10 PM, and the current store is demanding that he work a shift that lasts until 11 PM. Because he is not able to comply, he faces yet another transfer, one that will force him into a different, lower-skilled job, and that will significantly cut his pay.  

George could be very productive, if the store where he works was just a little more flexible. The likely truth is, they’re trying to get rid of George.

And what are the possible consequences? George may lose his apartment, and (absent any caring family) may find himself unable to work at all, and living on the street.

Is George worth so much less than someone younger? Does George need a union?

We as a society have given rights to corporations that we do not give to fellow humans. We empower corporations to control all aspects of our lives, including who may become viable candidates to rule over us, the political (and corporate) executives, the legislators. Corporations have the power to make George’s life miserable, through no fault of his own. Is society comprised of humans, or of corporations?

I think when we, the working people (high tech, manual, service worker or whatever) begin to adopt the corporate point of view about how we should be valued, we’ve lost something essential to our dignity. Unions are even more important in such an environment. The union may be able to re-assert that George has needs to, and that profits are not the sole criteria by which we should make decisions about human lives.

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17 thoughts on “Are unions relevant today? (How are humans valued?)”

  1. “George” needs to buy a car again so he can get to his work. Why should his desire to not drive become his employers problem?

    I’m not trying to be a wise ass but in this day and age employers don’t need to coddle their workers. Anyone that volunterily  gives up thie mode of getting to and from work, and then cries about being pushed into a lesser paying job, needs a reality check.

    I’m just saying……….

    1. is probably a miserable place for everyone to work. I can’t imagine their productivity is too terribly high. A smart company understands that, at least a little bit. You can’t just require workers to smile as part of the contract; you have to give them some reason to feel like they matter. If you don’t, then the company doesn’t matter to them, and you get half-assed work.

    2. …because he is near-sighted, or may have other medical issues. He is growing older, as we all must, and he’s showing it. If he has stopped driving, there must be a good reason.

      That is aside from the question, where might he find the money for a new car?

      I know that George can do the job that he’s assigned to do, i’ve watched him. But can he do the more physical, lower-skilled and lower-paying job that they’re planning to move him to, just because of the bus schedule?

      If they get away with it, they just might come up with an excuse to dismiss George. I suspect that is their ultimate goal.

      Consider — George is just one of many working folk facing the same crunch.

      The question becomes: is this what we all might anticipate for ourselves, in a society that values productivity moreso than humanity?

      1. all of these questions that you are asking become the employers problem?

        My dad had a question that he would ask whenever someone tried to dump their personal problems on someone else.

        He would ask “Why should your problem become MY problem?”

        I have used this through my whole life.

        If old George can not drive for whatever reason, if that reason is really out of his control, then yes, a good company would try and work with him.

        But if he quit driving because it cost too much or he just didn’t feel like having to pay for a car anymore, dump his ass!

        How many people do you know that are 60 years old that CAN’T drive? Medical reason are one thing, being lazy or cheap is another.

        We need to know which George is before we jump to conclusions.

        1. of compassion or empathy for your fellow human beings, or is it just “Gecko v. The World” for you?

          After a while, people’s problems start to become everybody’s problems, and being a selfish bastard about it is a big part of how we’ve gotten into this mess economically in the first place.

          Whatever happened to Americans looking out for each other, wanting to reach out a hand to their neighbor, and trying to make the country a better place by working with one another instead of just saying “How is your problem MY problem?”

          It’s your problem because it’s a systemic problem. That applies to unions, “Obamacare”, and nearly every single other issue you come here to give us the “not my problem” perspective on.

          1. raised differently from all of you “give the world away” liberals.

            I can’t help what I was taught. My parents taught me to stand on my own two feet and never ever ask soul for help, because they probably won’t give you any.

            Maybe more people in this country should try that instead of sticking their collective hands out for handouts all the time.

            My motto is if you expect nothing, you won’t be disapointed when you get nothing.

            I am not without compassion. I have compassion for my family and most every single animal out there. But humans for the most part and from my many years of having to work around the lazy slobs, can help themselves if they really want to.

            2. I was raised just like you were. I was taught to live by the same principles that everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and nobody owes anybody anything.

              It took me until I got to adulthood to see that not everything is rugged individualism.

              And not everything is as our parents tell it.

              I know you probably don’t like me very much, but thanks for at least responding honestly. Now I can at least appreciate where it is you’re coming from when you say things that I find to be cruel and lacking understanding for your fellow man. It’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to have it.

              1. I won’t respond to the likes of Aristotle as all he wants to do is tell me I am wrong and he is all knowing. I ignore idiots like that.

                I have stated my personal beliefs many times several years ago when I found this web site to be fun and when the people didn’t gang up on someone with a different viewpoint. Hell, at first I hated a fellow named Voyager (might have spelled his handle wrong) but after some time we got to appreciate each other’s point of view.

                I do admit I have zero compassion for ANYONE that won’t stand on their own two feet. I have a brother that is one step from living under a bridge but because he is full capable of taking care of himself, but won’t, hell with him. I’d kick him to the curb just as fast as anyone else.

                So I guess like Mike Rosen always says, we can agree to disagree.

                1. gets his feelings hurt here all the time. Well, it’s what happens when you kick dirt around all the time – someone kicks back. Boo fucking hoo.

                  Admit it – you also won’t respond because the point I raised about you immediately questioning the worker but not the company makes you look bad.

            3. … It’s interesting the you DON’T ask “Why does the company need a 60 year old man to work so late?” This whole thing could be avoided if they just switch his hours around with someone willing and able to work til 11.

  2. Both my father and my step father were injured on the job, both are (were) truck drivers.

    My dad was a union guy my step father was not.

    My Dad had been an independent owner/operator long haul driver when I was a kid, but when my sibs were 10 (and younger) he switched to driving the gasoline delivery truck for a union shop so he could spend time at home.  Having come from owner operator world he started out with disdain for the unions, but more about that later.

    My step father worked as a short haul regular route driver between Minneapolis MN and Appleton WI, didn’t own his rig and basically had a regular schedule.  The shop was small and on union.

    One night my father was delivering gas to a gas station in Brooklynn and told a car full of guys to put out their cigarettes.  They proceeded to beat the tar out of him.  My dad’s knee was so badly screwed up he couldn’t haul himself into the cab anymore.  More about the unions in a second.

    My step father was dropping a company trailer when the crank on the landing gear broke loose tearing his arm off as it windmilled around.  Fortunately blood loss didn’t kill him.  More on non unions in a second.

    My dad was working for BP ne Amoco at the time and his union was there to navigate him through the WC process, to push back when the company said it wasn’t work related, to fight for him and his rights when the company wanted to discard him.  Though a registered republican and elected official (school board) he became a union guy at that moment.

    My step father on the other hand was discarded by his company who tried to blame him for the accident (how a person could cause that, I don’t know since the break was broken).  He thought his company would take care of him, but they discarded him like they should have done with the broken trailer.  He had no union to fight for him and after months of no one in his corner he went and went and got a lawyer to fight for his rights.

    We may not “need” unions, but because differential power exists, everyone needs someone in their corner to fight for them.

  3. Are a part of any civilized society. Corruption and graft in unions cannot be fully addressed until everyone on the right and the left acknowledges their necessity in American society.

    Once the conversation moves on from “should they exist?” then we can talk about how they can better serve their membership and the businesses which they rely on to exist–and vice versa.

  4. But i contend that a society that views workers in this way is dystopian and has lost its soul; why should we not prefer, as the more humane measure of our worth, the value that individuals place upon their own lives?

    My value is that I should be paid 1M/year for blogging. Are you willing to pay for that?

    And then you say:

    In my view, the flaw in this thinking is equating productivity with value. It is a perceptual thing; one can accept that workers have a certain monetary value to the corporation, based upon what they contribute to the bottom line.

    Again, how else should it be measured? How would you set the compensation level for say Steven Spielberg & Brad Pitt?

    1. My value is that I should be paid 1M/year for blogging. Are you willing to pay for that?

      You see? Immediately you perceive worth in terms of money. What’s wrong with allowing individuals to demand, and receive respect?

      As part of my job, i talk to 100-200 workers in Denver area stores each day. I hear  accounts of abuse every day. More often, i hear extreme frustration, anger, alienation.

      Many older workers talk about how it used to be a wonderful job, but as the drive for profits has also driven policy, those same workers have come to hate coming to work each day.

      What is it about such policies that creates such anger and resentment? I think it may be the relentless message, reinforced with each policy decision, that employees don’t matter, only the needs of the business are of concern.

      It isn’t always a question of money. It is a matter of routinely disregarding a parent’s need to take a child to school at a certain time, or a student worker’s class schedule. It is demanding that workers do special tasks above their training, and for which they are not paid. It is demanding that employees punch a clock on time, that they also help customers immediately when asked, but punishing them when the latter makes the former impossible. It is firing employees because they forget to push each and every customer to buy a credit card as part of their checkout routine. It is ignoring employee health issues such as carpal tunnel syndrome, in a effort to maximize the value extracted from each employee before they’re fired for no longer being able to do the job. It is implementing an ubiquitous “secret shopper” program that is used to routinely spy upon the workers, in an effort to catch them in any behavior whatsoever that doesn’t accentuate the bottom line every minute of their work shift.

      Once again, i emphasize that i could ask any ten of these workers what they think of their job, and seven or more are likely to say they hate it, they are treated like (expletive), it is getting worse all the time, and/or they want to quit but don’t see how that is possible.

      If respect was freely given to service workers in a corporate environment, we wouldn’t have such widespread concerns that people’s rights are trampled. I fully understand that corporations have a legal obligation to make profits. I’m saying, with this as the ultimate prime directive for corporate behavior, the quality of work life for employees of many corporations is in a downward spiral, and this will be exacerbated as corporations become ever more wealthy and powerful.

      I propose that the very foundation of corporate behavior ought to be changed. I was advocating this long before i viewed the documentary The Corporation (which i highly recommend.)

      Now, David, you may draw upon your own experience in order to respond about whether workers need unions. I’m quite familiar with that world; when i left the factory, i retrained as a graphic designer, and participated in the culture to the extent that i remain the sole moderator of the TechsUnite group on Yahoo (with a membership of 1150+). I know about the productivity differences that you describe — in that world. But it isn’t a world that i can relate to in my current job. And i chose my current job because of the injustice that i witness every day.

      By the way — i have also participated in interviews with workers from a large, very well-known non-union department store that i don’t need to name. In some ways it is even worse there.

      1. Here’s a recent blog I wrote at work – R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I think companies should treat their employees equitably.

        In the high-tech arena it tends to be better (but we have horror stories too) because it’s much easier for people to get a better job across the street.

        I think unions have something valuable to bring to the table. But I think they need to radically change what they do and how they go about it in order to be successful.

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