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(D) Phil Weiser
(D) Joe Neguse
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60%
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(D) Diana DeGette*
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(R) Lauren Boebert*
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DEMOCRATS
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DEMOCRATS
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October 23, 2009 05:03 PM UTC
32 Comments
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We had to repost this blog because we misspelled Dan Maes’ name in the poll, and once a poll is posted it can’t be edited. Fortunately, nobody had voted yet.
But I actually don’t know. This issue angers those close to it, but aren’t there far more GOP primary voters in Colorado Springs?
I’d also like to know more about the opinions of Republicans NOT in SE Colorado. Is this widely considered a property rights issue by conservatives? Nobody likes eminent domain, and this would be of a scale to swallow whole towns! But is it important to the base?
Republican lawmakers in El Paso county obviously want Pinon Canyon. Eastern plains, no way.
Metro Republican legislators got up to the well to debate Pinon Canyon and gave passionate speeches about private property and eminent domain. I remember hearing Steve Ward speak eloquently about how his childhood home was taken by eminent domain. I also remember Sen. Schultheis arguing for property right and voting for the bill.
The Pinon Canyon bill in ’07 passed overwhelmingly in both houses. HB07-1069 was 56 – 9 and 30-3 on third readings.
Someone else pointed out that even if McInnis gets nominated at the primary, Ritter will be able to nail him against the wall on this issue.
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It is all about taking away property rights — denying some people the right to sell their land to the Army.
There is no way the Army condemns land or seizes land through eminent domain for PCMS expansion.
This is about some ranchers manipulating soulless legislators into preventing their neighbors from voluntarily selling their land.
The Army doesn’t need or want all land in the area, only about 20% of it.
They don’t need huge contiguous parcels; anything bigger than about 200 acres would serve their needs for training for future wars.
This is about preserving heritage. Some folks want to stay on their ranches and live as their parents did, and they don’t want anything to change around them. They are using the law to deprive their neighbors of any right to sell.
What if the Army bought State Land Board land – how would that hurt the ranchers opposed to expansion ?
Here’s how: they couldn’t lease that land for grazing for 7 cents an acre anymore.
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Absolutely, the US Army Corps of Engineers lied to the locals back when land was first acquired for the original PCMS.
The Army promised local jobs, but all the jobs went to folks in Colorado Springs. Shameful.
But why does that history mean that soldiers should go into battle unprepared ?
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….but B-X, I absolutely refute the idea that 200 acres of PCMS is going to replace the National Training Center. Or JRTC in Arkansas. It’s not big enough for Brigade Operations, and it has no terrain features similar to training at JRTC.
And there’s NO WAY anyone in this state (civilian or gov’t) is going to let someone call for fire from PCMS to Fort Carson or vice versa.
So, tell me where the training value is in PCMS that doesn’t already exist with the current land? It doesn’t – to do all of that stuff, you go to NTC or JRTC ANYWAY.
Sometimes I think it’s about saving those 2-stars and above from having to take their ass to the field in their cushy 5-ton expando-vans. With PCMS, they can keep their butts in the TOC at Division, and helo out when they need to visit training. And get a round of golf in before the smoking lamp is lit.
I agree that expanding PCMS would create ZERO jobs around PCMS..maybe if someone opened a 4-wheel drive pizza delivery service.
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Look at Paktika Province in Afghanistan, bordering on North & South Waziristan and Baluchistan in Pakistan.
The main ISAF presence in the Province is FOB Sharana.
http://www.google.com/url?q=ht…
It hosts a PRT, an Engineer battalion, even a small CIA detachment. There’s a Green Beans and daily Chinook flights to the rear at Bagram, an hour away (6 hours by road, if there’s no surprises.) The airfield can land C-17’s. Some days there’s up to 4,000 people there.
There’s also a dozen flights some days out to a half dozen COP’s, smaller FOB’s, and even sites so small that I don’t know what to call them. One has 20 people and no fresh water. You can get a visual on Pakistani territory from three of them.
There are no real roads to three of them.
Lily pads.
I think the expanded PCMS concept is to broadly duplicate that.
Off the top of my head, I think the Army is looking for an additional 40,000 acres, about 60 square miles, 1/6th the size of the current PCMS.
I think they want 3 or 4 parcels of 5,000 to 10,000 acres, and 20 more of between 200 to 1,000 acres.
At least one large parcel is needed for practice cutting new roads. That piece will really get chewed up. They will use it for simulating IED defeat as well.
The Army cannot do the training they need for 4th Gen Warfare at Forts Irwin or Polk. Just not possible.
IMHO.
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…I thought it was a a Google map link to the actual FOB. Nice touch.
Based on your assessment, wouldn’t make better training “sense” to take back Camp Hale to duplicate actual high-altitude training? Flying at Helo at 14000 ft is much different than 3000ft. Very similar terrain on the backside of Camp, as well as learning how to suck oxygen while humping a 120lb ruck.
I do disagree about not being able to do the same training at NTC, esp since the area around Whale Gap would do pretty well. Esp if you’d have to hump to the Star Wars building on Mt. what-cha-macallit.
However, I doubt you could do either road/engineering ops anywhere on PMCS, since you’d very likely be screwing with the water table. Same same for any airstrikes, MLRS, Artillery or other fire missions. IED? depends if you get to blow up real sh*t or have to fake it.
Lastly, while it may seem that way, we’re not going to fight in ‘stan forever. Training should be based on capabilities and doctrine, not the fight we’re in at the moment. If that was the case, Tigerland would still be around.
(For the rest of you, I just realized that you’re probably completely confused by the lingo. This is the last I’ll post on it. B-X – I’ll try and send you an email.)
Here’s hoping that this issue turns into the ’10 primary campaign issue for the GOP that C & D was for the ’06 nomination fight between Holtzy and Both Ways….cause for a bloodbath!
I thought McInnis had really screwed up, and given Penry a massive opening to co-opt a very active community as well as an ideological talking point that would sell statewide.
But then I saw the polling showed McInnis blowing away Penry by double digits in every part of the state, except in Colorado Springs, where he was only blowing Penry away by single digits. All of a sudden, the activity in the Springs–announcements, endorsement chase, Fort Carson pandering–all made a lot more sense. Hold the line statewide and fight for the only significant GOP stronghold he didn’t already own, and shut this primary down before it really ever gets off the ground.
Pinon Canyon is a gamble, but an understandable one. Penry is either playing right into McInnis’ hands–alienating a major GOP population base while chasing a votes in unpopulated rancher counties–or else suburbanite GOP’ers statewide suddenly start identifying with Pinon Canyon and property rights and McInnis has screwed himself.
Much as I find the Pinon Canyon expansion thoroughly appalling, something tells me McInnis has made the right bet.
If Dems get really lucky it’s the kind of internecine nastiness that can produce great sound bites to use in the general, such as “Both Ways Bob”.
Scott is from the Western Slope and he has supported our military since long before he ran for Congress and now for Governor. People on our side of the divide agree with McInnis. The military by all accounts has backed off of eminent domain so I would say Scott is correct when he says this is no longer a property rights issue. My bet is that fast draw Penry was too quick to try for the headline and didn’t think about the contributions the military has made to Colorado. Now he’s farming for votes in a desperate attempt to offset C-Springs.
in the Primary…not that it really matters, again the FR suburbs will decide who goes against Ritter.
Penry is alienating everyone around him, give him some time and I bet he’ll even self combust. He’s a ticking time bomb and if he’s the GOP’s candidate I feel sorry for them. He’s a kid. He should try doing the current job he was elected to do and get some experience, then give it a shot the next go around.
He’ll probably carry Mesa, probably Delta and maybe Montrose, but not by much. You forget that McInnis was on the ballot in 11 elections in his old House district based in Garfield County, and for six elections everywhere else. People all over the district know him.
I agree with you that the FR suburbs will tell the tale, because they always do.
I’ll bet you coffee, Gertie.
start at steak dinners these days. Coffee bets are OK for poll results and individual endorsements!
n/t
as the 20 westernmost counties–drawing the boundary at (and excluding) Archuleta, Mineral, Saguache, Chafee, Park, Summit, Clear Creek, Gilpin, Boulder, Larimar.
Summit could go in there too, but I think it goes elsewhere. You could make an argument for an ‘I-70/mountain corridor’ set of counties, and consider those a bit differently, politically, and throw in Eagle along with some of the more eastern counties (Summit, Clear Creek, Gilpin, etc.) but I’ll stick with the 20 identified.
I still think Penry is favored to win there (although it remains a dynamic race, I am not ready to announce McInnis post-mortem.)
A lot of the GOP think McInnis gave away the 3rd CD. A lot of the tea bag faithful–a strong strain among WS Republicans–believe McInnis is too moderate and ‘experience’ cuts both ways on this one.
The traditional Club 20 territory, but not Lake and Jackson counties that were added a few years ago.
Archuleta, Delta, Dolores, Eagle, Garfield, Grand, Gunnison, Hinsdale, LaPlata, Mesa, Moffat, Montezuma, Montrose, Ouray, Pitkin, Rio Blanco, Routt, San Juan, San Miguel, Summit
But it’s not participating and it’s withholding its dues this year in protest of oil & gas uber alles.
I suggested the original Club 20 counties for purposes of our bet because it’s pretty much a given that they’re either on or west of the divide.
Shoot, it’s only coffee.
n/t
In Southern Colorado, the issue is a single-issue hot-button topic for so many voters of both parties. It is one that defines candidates and politicians.
In Colorado Springs, there may be more voters, but this issue is not as top-of-mind. There are so many other issues that GOP voters in Colorado Springs would consider, even if they support the Pinon Canyon expansion.
And that’s why this helps Penry. He won’t automatically lose a bunch of votes in Colorado Springs, but the distinction gains him huge support in Southern Colorado.
You just don’t have the muscle vs FR.
there aren’t that many Republican votes to begin with. Colorado Springs is the treasure trove for the GOP.
Didn’t a recent poll have Penry down 40/13, likely R primary voters? Didn’t Penry finish third in fundraising (Governor)?
Hasn’t his campaign manager, Britt, lost just about everything he has been involved in?
I think the early charm of Penry has worn off.
Can you imagine Penry with a donor asking him do give when he is down in the polls and fundraising stats?
Hang it up Josh…you’ve peaked…
Is the ‘burg near Pinon?
The proposed expansion would take much of eastern Heurfano County extremely close to Walsenburg.
The more the two GOP candidates fight in this primary the more appealing Ritter will be for unf’s in the general. Whichever side wins the unaffiliated voters wins the general.