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August 28, 2010 06:18 PM UTC
33 Comments
not enough folks serve, not enough understand service. I was aised in a career military family. I actually believed until I was about 13 in this concept of Universal Service. I thought EVERYONE served. Then my dad was discharged and took us to the small town where he grew up. I was amazed at how few had served except for the older folks who had served in WWII. Those were many.
Now I live in a small town in CO. Quite a few served in Viet Nam. I know many of the older ones who served in WWII and Korea. Very few served between Viet Nam and Iraq. Quite a good number now serve and go to Iraq. Unfortunately they are called “heroes” without having earned the designation.
Does military service make for a better representative? As someone who has NOT served, I would say the answer is yes.
I am a moderate Democrat in the 6th Congressional District. One of the big pluses of the Democrat running against Tancredo a couple of years ago was that he was a vet with combat experience. He knew what he was talking about: he wasn’t a chicken-hawk.
I do not think that you would lose many votes – certainly none that would otherwise vote for you – from the left simply for bringing up your military service. I remember how proud my wife and I were, watching John Kerry get the Dem nomination in 2004. Then, of course, the vicious “Swift Boating” began and we were treated to the unseemly spectacle of people from the right – remember, these are the folks who claim to revere veterans – dismissing Kerry’s Purple Heart-qualifying wounds, wearing band-aids on the convention floor… Sickening and disgusting.
But attacks like that are few and far between. Some would say Kerry brought the attacks on himself by overplaying his military service: the salute at the convention, etc. I will agree it was a bit much. It betrayed some uncertainty among Democrats as to how to reference Kerry’s service. They were probably worried that if they understated it, the same idiots who wore band-aids would shriek that Kerry was “ashamed” of his service. Sometimes you can’t win.
But if I were you, I would mention your service. Let others make it the lead sentence in their stories, that’s fine.
You are right about the way veterans stand at attention. I remember visiting Camp Lejeune, N.C. once during the Fourth of July. Lots of veterans were there, many dressed in t-shirts and shorts, totally indistinguishable from the many like me who hadn’t served. But when the colors were presented, and when their own service branch songs were played, they stood so ramrod straight it was amazing. And very moving.
And while it can be a little odd at times to hear something like that in public, may I take the opportunity to say: Thank you for your service.
Even though I have never served in the military, your words resonated with me, as well. As an anti-war activist, I am also simultaneously a strong supporter of our troops.
I have a photo of my grandfather and his many sons serving in their various World War II uniforms. My brother-in-law retired from the Navy. My nephew is serving now. For me, when I sincerely thank people for their service, it is exactly for the reason you stated above — because they signed on the dotted line to put the well-being of the country above their own. It’s not glamorous, it’s not well-paid, and there aren’t a lot of perks… but it is sincere. That means something where we come from.
From the bottom of my heart, Pam, thank you for your service.
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I don’t question anyone who says that they enlisted in the military out of patriotism. Bully for you. Thank you for your service.
But I found that most Sad Sacks/ Grunts/ Dogies I served with to my left and to my right were there for less noble, but not ignoble, reasons.
We joined because our lives were headed nowhere, and we needed a fresh start.
That’s the great thing about joining the Army: it allowed me to reinvent myself.
For me, it wasn’t such an attractive choice. When I joined, the war in Vietnam was still raging, and I thought the chances were pretty good that I’d be sent there, and if I was, I thought the chances were not negligible that I’d die there. But I’d made some pretty big mistakes for a 17-year-old, and the future I’d dreamed of and aspired to all my life was no longer a possibility.
The Draft had not yet been scrapped, and I assumed that, considering how well everything else was going, I was sure to get a low number in the lottery.
Besides, my career-naval-officer Dad was completely distraught about my older brother becoming a phony “Conscientious Objector” to avoid Vietnam, so I knew that at least one person who I wanted to please would respect my sacrifice.
But I didn’t believe in the war, and I wasn’t doing it out of love for my country; I did it to improve my prospects, and that was true of most they guys I served with in the 82nd Airborne, my first permanent assignment.
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This is not addressed to Pam specifically, but in my extremely limited experience I have found that the most chest-thumping patriotic veterans tend to be the ones who never faced any prospect of being sent into battle, especially Air Force vets. Nobody was ever drafted into the AF to my knowledge.
The vets least likely to hold up military service as a litmus test for patriotism are actual combat vets. Granted, I don’t get out much.
Apropos of nothing, I think John Kerry is a poor leader, but he was a true combat hero. Any soldier that went on combat patrols in Iraq or Afghanistan and who didn’t commit war crimes is a hero in my book.
Combat is a psychological meatgrinder, and to endure it despite knowing that the nation doesn’t believe in the mission, that’s “Third Circle of Hell” level of difficulty.
And in case there is any confusion about this, the people of the USA do NOT support either of the 2 main wars that our soldiers are currently fighting.
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I did not address why people were/are in the military. Mainly because my diary was originally a comment to CharleyMiller2010’s diary; when it grew beyond 50 words I decided on a separate diary. And, because I think it is worthy of a book series.
You write that you enlisted to try and straighten out your life. I think that is one major reason for enlisting and few understand that who have not been in the military. In high school I knew more than a couple of guys who did that. I also know several who had the decision made for them when appearing before a judge.
The Air Force had many people like you. I liked those wanting to change their lives. They wanted a better life than what they were leaving behind. I hope I helped a few of them.
My vet husband never does any chest thumping and has no trouble with Vietnam era guys his age who avoided the draft even though he volunteered. He was not in the economic class that was able to avoid the draft and volunteered mainly to get into the Navy since he figured that would be the best option. Since he wound up on a Swift Boat, not so much.
An old friend of ours, a Vietnam vet who was a clerk and spent the war in an office and driving generals around the golf course in golf carts, is the one who is a foaming at the mouth, chest thumping ultra conservative hawk, hates “gooks” and draft dodgers. Go figure. My husband can only still speak to him occasionally if he promises not to bring up any of the above.
The stories he does like to tell are about how his experience opened up the world to him as someone from a tiny town in a western state. The people he was with, the places he got to see on R&R, even the Vietnamese and their culture. He likes to tell the funny, human stories, never self aggrandizing ones. But when we visited San Diego where a friend who is an officer got us on to the base on Coronado Island to see the preserved Swift Boat that is displayed there, when he climbed on board he burst into tears. Only a very, very few of us, a few brothers in arms and myself, would know from his lips, anything about the reasons why.
He completely agrees with you that we never ever should have gone to war in Iraq and believes that Afghanistan should have been over when the Qaeda training camps were destroyed and we let Bin Laden get away.
I felt that I understood your discomfort with the thank yous but wasn’t sure I could out my finger on why. I remember how different it used to be, how many in congress were vets when I was growing up, how almost every dad on my block was a vet. I’m in the generation born to WWII vets and for whom having a vet dad was normal and common as dirt. Many of our dad’s younger cousins were Korean war vets. They weren’t all combat vets but they had military training and experienced the military life.
We hear about how superior our military is now to the forces during the era of the draft because of the highly motivated volunteers but I’m not so sure about that. For one thing the standards have gotten pretty low through the years of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. But aside from that, the draft made it so much more of a shared experience, made the forces so diverse and I don’t mean in terms of race or ethnicity. The draft brought in all kinds of people and gave them experiences with others they would never have lived in close quarters with without it. Small town boys, farmers and ranchers, big city kids, people from every region. Sadly during WWII it didn’t do that for blacks and whites but it did some of that afterward.
I’m not sure it’s such a bad idea to have a force including people who would never have chosen to be in the military. I think we have much more of a disconnect with our all volunteer military. Maybe your discomfort when someone thanks you for your service comes from the way it’s become a kind of national but superficial form of religion to worship the troops and vets with that thank you, the bumper sticker, the ribbon magnet while the world of those in the military, a tiny minority, has become more isolated from the rest of us than ever.
It was so ordinary, so normal in the post WWII era that the main reason service was a plus for politicians on both sides of the aisle was just that it put them with the other ordinary guys who had done their bit, unless they were highly decorated heroes which elevated them above the herd. Maybe it helped them to see each other as good guys with something in common who disagreed on policy issues but were not sworn enemies as they seem to see each other today. It’s so rare and getting more rare for a conservative to admire a liberal for his character or visa versa, the way they could back then. Maybe the draft wasn’t such a bad thing.
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I think that the Draft baldly contradicts the freedoms that America stands for. As we both know, a draftee loses most of their Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, albeit temporarily.
But, darn it, we would not still be in Iraq or Afghanistan if we had an equitable Draft.
In fact, a more engaged citizenry might have prevented the Iraq invasion in the first place.
Doug Lamborn, by the way, wants us to do whatever it takes to secure victory in our two wars. Someone with some sense might take a different view, if the voting public demanded it.
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No one else has.
It’s way too easy for the public and pols to stick with bumper sticker toughness of the lets you and him fight variety when the military is mostly them, not us. And you are so right to stipulate “equitable” which the Vietnam era draft most certainly was not. Even so it was broad and worrisome enough to keep the public more engaged and for that war to have a much greater personal effect on a much larger segment of the public which in turn created more pressure on pols than is the case today.
or some something approaching Universal Service would definitely help get the public more engaged.
Many here will recall that during Viet Nam the value of a dead son or daughter was fixed at $20K. It is now $400K. The family has definitely had a heart shattering loss but I think if the insurance were still $20K many more parents would be antiwar.
I can’t believe that any parents would consider $400k to be adequate compensation for the loss of their child. I reckon most folks whose kids volunteer for military service think they have made an adult decision that involves risk on their part, and are proud of their courage to do that.
Personally, I would be crushed and terrified if my 16-year-old son volunteered for military service. Crushed because, as Pam pointed out, the first thing the military teaches new recruits is how to kill. It would destroy me to think of my dear son as a trained killer. Terrified for the obvious reason.
I must admit that if my son were in danger of being drafted, I would be leading antiwar protests instead of deploring our wars from the comfort of my own home. And I would work like a demon to unseat anybody who voted to start a draft again, unless they allowed an option for civilian service instead of military service.
Yet I’ve seen parents of a dead vet, more than once, use their loss to benefit themselves, to get free stuff, to prop themselves up in the community.
And, I’ve seen them absolutely waste the $ on toys. Like lotto winnrs. It’s their’s, they can do what they wish with it.
I know lots of people who do “retail therapy” when something small goes wrong. I suppose people who have suffered a profound loss may think a little retail therapy will help ease their pain.
And as I’ve given more thought to your original point, you may be right. Whether or not the recipients of the $400k check think it is adequate compensation, other folks may believe that their loss has been acknowledged with the check so the rest of us don’t have to do anything to recognize their loss and try to prevent other parents from suffering a loss. If the check were $20k, the rest of us might be more outraged and maybe, just maybe, would do something to help end this senseless war.
and I’m not suggesting it should be, we might even see some of them burned. I do think we would for sure see more people upset about the continuation of these wars.
We also, since year 2 of these wars, have been told how remarkable it is that our vets are serving additional tours. Not so remarkable I think when you conisder 1) there has been nothing for them to do here in the US, and 2) combat pay (deserved) that is all being saved because there is really no place to spend it.
We are so hungry to have heroes that we’re even using that term for some of the mercenaries.
1. Veterans, especially those who have served overseas, tend to have a bigger view of things. We have seen intolerance (how women are treated in Saudi Arabia), extreme poverty (families in Viet Nam, Haiti, Somalia), and oppression (the Taliban). Seeing these things tend to make you want to work towards making the World a better place.
2. Veterans know the horror of war. And unlike the usual parodies or stereo-typing, are less inclined to want to resort to it. Eisenhower wanted to get us out of Korea and he built up a strong Cold War arsenal to serve as a deterrent rather than a force to be used hither and yon. Kennedy, although faced with a growing skirmish in Southeast Asia, tried to limit our Nation’s activity there.
Clinton and Bush, on the other hand (I know, Bush served some Guard time but not really enough to experience true military service) seemed all to ready to commit forces without a true understanding of the effects on overseas relations, stress on families, or a true grasp of their strategic and tactical values.
3. Veterans, as referred to by Pam, often have a strong work ethic and a very strong ethos of community service. In Colorado Springs, several non-profits, many HOAs, the Chamber, the Realtors, and other groups are all headed by veterans. Five of the nine on City Council are veterans, as are a couple of the State legislators. I know, Colorado Springs has a preponderance of veterans, but it is noteworthy that many of them have decided to “give back” to the Community.
All-in-all, our community, our State, and our nation are well served by veterans who continue to serve long after they have taken off the uniform.
is so important. Even the travel within the States helps greatly to educate a young person who might well think FL is nothing but spring break
Although I tested high and was accepted. I had no money for College. so I was all set to join the Marine Corps. my Father who had served in the Army begged me not to enlist. At least until after I finished or dropped out of college.
As He was Filled with patriotic fervor after Pearl Harbor. (and Unemployed) He enlisted in the Army. Five years and two purple hearts later. He was Discharged in 1945 as a corporal. He went on to serve our community as a Garbage man with the city of Denver for 30 years.
My Mother on the other hand enlisted in the Air Force. (1955) went to college whilst in and retired as a lieutenant Colonel in 1985.
neither of them ever wore their service on their sleeves nor did they ever feel the need to brag about a single day in uniform.
While in college my roommate got caught with some Marijuana and a pipe. as his roommate I was ticketed also. thus rendering me ineligible to become an officer or even to enlist. (at the time)
My father was relieved that I would not be serving at all, even as an officer. (I Am his only child) on his death bed the last coherent thing he ever said to me was “Truly Free men are college men”.
To this day I feel a certain feeling of guilt for not serving. That is until I realize the guilt is from seeing someone wearing their service in their sleeves. bolstering themselves as somehow superior to me. Simply for their service. As this is not Rome And ones service merely entitles someone to additional state Welfare. My feeling of Guilt quickly subsides.
I do appreciate people who served in an armed service. I appreciate and RESPECT those wounded or killed even more.
I Love this country and frankly feel insulted when My Patriotism is questioned by someone whom did serve. Especially if Just Because I am a Democrat. I get it Conservatives and/or republicans are afraid of a changing world/country or even making America a better place than it already is.
Armed or any other type of service is giving of oneself for our country. even ladling soup at a Homeless shelter is serving our country.
The point is Just because someone served in the military does not make them any better or more suited for public office than someone who hasn’t. the Public Office being Sought is in itself Service to this Nation/Country/community. There fore voting for someone BECAUSE they were in an armed service is 1)truly cliquish and Elitist
2)bolstering the false premise that somehow they are better than any other American.
3) a dumb way of choosing (peaceful) leaders.
Isn’t Equality a basis for our country?
I for one look for the honesty, intellect, ideas and direction each candidate wishes to take our country.
Then make my decision.
and your dad was correct to discourage you from enlisting. Viet Nam, to any who bothered to learn, was a mistake. And, it could be seen without hindsight. That war could have been completely avoided if we had not initially and continually supported the French in their colonial, anti-American ways. We were asked for support by brown folks but couldn’t bring ourselves to do that.
Viet-Nam had some part in his discouraging me.
but I think it was more of his intellect hidden by being a stutterer. Society (at the time) just did not allow him to become more than a garbage man. coupled of course to constantly being the “point man” all during his Army service. he used to say “all his Army service was, every day, was as bait” He wanted me to be doing the “baiting”.
BTW I went to college between 1988-1992. the standards to be an officer were to have a spotless record.
So considering someone’s veteran status is cliquish, elitist and dumb?
Sorry you feel disproportionately guilty about not serving, but there’s no reason for you to take it out on veterans.
telling you to brush up on your reading comp skills.
it is the “wearing ones service ones sleeve” to proclaim superiority. Then to vote for them based solely on that. That is “cliquish, elitist and dumb.” might I add “intentionally ignorant” too.
it’s even worse when Palin, and many others, want credit for being a parent of a “combat vet”. She gave birth. She raised him, maybe better than Bristol. She is not serving and being a “combat vet” requires that there be others nobly serving as well. This does not minimize the concern that any parent feels every day when the kid is serving. But, there are many others serving as well, some in offices, some between the office and the bullets.
Then there are the vets like GW that do little with their service but AVOID true service and then use it to suckle every teat available that will advance their career later.
We ought also recognize equally those that serve the Peace Corps, non-profits (non missionary types), State, USAID and others.
Forget cliquish and elitist, that’s just plain dumb. Even worse would be voting for someone only because they boast and brag about their service.
this thread, I think, is an example of a good discussion. Folks with some differences in the way they understand “something” but who all have some value in that “something” and finding that we have much more agreement than disagreement.
on a candidates resume. Nor should it be a determent to that candidate if that service was as a “community Organizer”.
So Scott we then agree that Military service is not an adequate determining factor in whom to vote for.
Military service is an important factor for me when voting for someone, but not the biggest.
If by some weird chance 2 candidates were exactly the same, except 1 of them was in the military, I’d vote for that one.
But I’m not going to overlook policy stances that I disagree with just because a candidate is a veteran.
I have often felt that way because there are so many noble professions. I serve my country when I volunteer. I serve my country when I protest the war. People serve their country when they teach, when they organize unions, when they coach youth, when they take low-paying jobs and work very, very hard because the jobs help others. Some parents serve our country when they stay home to raise their children. My folks served their country by being good citizens and helping other families who were struggling.
There are many ways to serve, and each are noble. None of them diminish the importance of another. I support our troops, and I honor those who serve our country — ALL OF THEM.
Thanks for a great reminder.
because they’re a veteran.
Every honorably discharged veteran should be proud of their service. No none should have to downplay their service.
I’m sorry that the culture has promoted that. It shouldn’t.
I respect you tremendously Pam.
There are 400,000 Vets in Colorado, and “YES” military service does matter, you already mentioned that.
But, I also want to point out, there is a growing trend for those under 40 to view military service as a negative.
In the government sector its a plus, in the private sector its more of a negative, for various reasons.
Authoritarian, discipline etc….rigid structure.
Thanks for bringing this up.
Its my top issue of difference when I compare the Buck N’ Bennet to me.