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January 26, 2006 09:00 AM UTC

Thursday Open Thread

  • 52 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

Into the great wide open…

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52 thoughts on “Thursday Open Thread”

  2. President Jonah by Gore Vidal

    Gore Vidal writes an excellent article on Truthdig, a verse from the Book of Jonah, a few of my thoughts, then the link, enjoy!

    “Then said the Lord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night.” Jonah 4:10

    Jonah is a short book, just four chapters, Jonah shows the arrogance of a man saved by the hand of God, then forgetting that grace. Wesley Clark, a serious student of God’s Word had this to say after 9/11, “You will determine whether rage or reason guides the United States in the struggle to come…whether we are known for revenge or compassion…whether we, too, will kill in the name of God, or whether in His name, we can find a higher civilization and a better means of settling our differences.” -Seton Hall Address. I would say that Wesley Clark knows things that the man who would be king and the sword of God has little understanding of and is certainly not aware of the implications for such belligerence. MC

    http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/20060124_president_jonah/

  3. I would agree Mike. And for this “man who would be king” to lecture HAMAS that the violence must stop” is plain ridiculous. He has lost all legitimacy.

  4. Absolutely, Mike, it is wrong to use violence against Al-Qaeda, Hamas or other other peace-loving, justice-seeking mass murderers.  The proper response to terrorist attacks is to beg “Please, Sir, can we have some more?”
    Thanks for explaining why the left will NEVER win the trust of the American people.

  5. TalkAboutHypocrites:  Let’s use violence to solve all of the world’s problems. Let’s use it to solve our nations problems. Let’s use it to solve all of our community problems. Let’s use it to solve all the problems in our families. You shmuck! You have about as much intelligence and moral certitude as a snail.

  6. So, it’s great when terrorists murder Americans, but evil when America fights back?  I’m glad Franklin D. Roosevelt, not Sir Robin, was president when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.  Robin would still be trying to understand Hitler and address the legitimate national aspirations of the Bushido warlords.  Robin, you’re such a schmuck that you can’t even spell the word right…you left out the first c, dickhead.

  8. Speaking of mass murderers, you left out George Bush, he’s responsible for at least 120,000 Iraqi civilians, far surpassing all suicide bombers in all of history.  Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.  Now let’s see, the Arab pilots were Iraqi?  No, they were Saudi.  So is Osama Bin Laden.  George has managed, or should I say mismanaged, to put gasoline on a fire that grows hotter everytime we hit the wrong house with precision guided munitions, which by the way, is viewed as cowardly in most of the world.  You guys really should read your bibles more, there is a lot of truth there, no kidding, but make it easy on yourself and read Jonah.

  9. Mike Collins, care to provide some factual basis for the claim of 120,000 “Iraqi civilians” killed?

    In the meantime, what you suggest we do when attacked by terrorists?  Lie down and take it?  Give up our way of life?  Become like them?

    I suppose you’d also recommend to a victim of rape that she simply “lie there and enjoy it”.

  11. I gotta hand it to you, Mike, you don’t sugar coat things.  You hate America so much you end up loving people like Al-Qaeda who also hate America. At least, you’re consistent.

  12. How about we all stop using Bibles to decide our foreign policy and start using our brains?

    BMR – as far as I know there are no “good” body counts of Iraqis from the war; the Bush administration “doesn’t count bodies”.  I have two numbers for you: 100,000 – number of Iraqi dead from a Johns Hopkins study published in the medical journal Lancet, Nov. 2004 (AlterNet article here), and 28,198 – low number of reported civilian casualties from Iraq Body Count.

    Voyageur – what part of Mike’s statement said he liked terrorists or hated America?

  13. I think a psychotic rant that accused the president of the United States of being a mass murderer speaks for itself, PR., not to mention accusing the U.S. Armed Forces of being “cowards” for using precision guided missiles instead of sending in ground forces to be killed.

  14. Reading a bit much into the statement, perhaps?

    President George W. Bush ordered an attack on a nation which was not threatening us, killing at least 28,000 civilians – possibly many more.  His justifications were proveably false at the time of the invasion and he failed to follow through on promises to make invasion a last resort.  At the very least he lied to Congress and the UN to which we are bound by treaty.  At the worst he is a war criminal, and I think under objective circumstances proveably so.  This reflects feelings for the actions of a President and his supporters, not those of a nation.

    Mike notes that “the world” views bombing as a cowardly action, and notes that hitting the wrong house enflames the passions against us.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say “the world” views bombing as cowardly, but I believe it accurately reflects the views of Iraqis, Arabic peoples, and others in the region who might support an insurgency or terrorism.

    In no way does Mike actually accuse the Armed Forces themselves of being cowardly.  The Left learned from Vietnam that the implementers are not necessarily the responsible party, though they sometimes get caught up in the act (e.g. Mai Lai).

  15. “In no way does Mike actually accuse the Armed Forces themselves of being cowardly. The Left learned from Vietnam that the implementers are not necessarily the responsible party, though they sometimes get caught up in the act (e.g. Mai Lai).”

    ……….

    Gee, yeah, that was real big of him not to actually name names.  In case you hadn’t noticed, the President doesn’t actually run the battles, or point to specific targets.  The President allows the Generals to command the troops. 

    The throwaway comment about ‘hitting the wrong house’ is what you get when you believe what you read in the NYTimes and Time magazine.  By the way, the latter rag was exposed at their litte ‘staged’ photo op of the (supposed) house that was hit in Pakistan recently.

  16. Mike wasn’t talking about the Armed Forces, or, in  regards to the bombing incident, about the President; he was talking about the way other people around the world viewed said incident.

    I’m just trying to be helpful in presenting a more complete interpretation of “the other side’s” comments for anyone who might be mis-reading it; please stop continuing to do so….

    PS – the Times story represents the official investigation results; the photo in question was a “file photo” from Getty Images,  not of the same house, nor did the title say it was (though it was mis-labeled “missile”…)

  17. Trust me, PR, I’m not “misreading” Mike psychotic rants.  He did indeed call U.S. troops “cowardly”.  He did indeed call Bush a mass murderer.  The Weasel wording he used in both cases doesn’t make him less a psycho, just a psychotic weasel.  Stop making excuses for him.

  18. A man that doesn’t love his country enough to criticize it in the interest of making it better, doesn’t love his country and quite possibly little else.  Partisan blindness is not an excuse, it’s a sin and a pathetic practice of the Republican 13th Commandment.
    Not that you would believe this administration has spent millions for “friendly” media or that you could possibly see the big picture.  A person that lacks the ability to be introspective is a sociopath, a person that is angry about a truth or speaks the truth is not psychotic, they usually have a strong moral compass and always have the courage of their convictions.  Whereas a neocon has the certain skill of making the weaker argument stronger and will listen to no other.  One of the most damning parables of Jesus was the “as much as you have done unto them, you did it to me also.”
    American deaths in Iraq, the count is now 2,239 and 2032 since Bush said, “Bring ’em on.”  I blame Cheney/Bush for a lot of things, but they’ve had a lot of help, knowwhatimsayin?.  Those that have never known war haven’t a clue regarding it’s implications, it is reflected in the Disabled American Veterans ratings for congress, where almost to a man and woman, Republicans score the big zero, Democrats usually score 100, who supports the troops? Not Bob Beauprez, not Wayne Allard, not Marilyn Musgrave, all zeros.  I can’t honestly name one combat veteran in the Bush Administration.  This country has not heard hostile cannon fire within it’s borders since 1865, it has never been bombed like Germany, Japan and Vietnam.  Poor Vietnam suffered the worst bombings in the history of the mankind, wave after wave of B-52’s, each with a payload of 80,000 pounds, a person has to be a mile and a half away from a 2000 pound bomb to prevent concussion damage, think forty of those from one plane.  Civilian casualties, we never count them, the ratio to American soldiers killed in action in Vietnam was 50 to one, three million civilians, makes the killing fields of Cambodia look like child’s play.  Diplomacy has always been the answer, statesmen that seek peace at all costs, men with vision, compassion, a sense of history and the futility of war.  Saddam didn’t gas the Iranians, we did, never once in the Middle East have we prepared a table before our “enemies” which by the way had good reason to despise the puppet monarchal governments WE imposed on them.  Our thirst for oil and luxury in exchange for the oppression of millions and our willingness to endorse tyranny, poverty and murder.  The blood of any Iraqis or Kurds killed by Saddam is on our hands, we created him, armed him, encouraged him.  Never in history has a country such as the United States been more qualified to say, “I have seen the enemy and it is us.” Science versus intelligent design? LOL  Here’s some science for you, and in order to appear as conservative as possible the data for Fallujah was intentionally left out.

    SN
    January 27, 2005
    WHY U.S. MEDIA DISMISSED THE LANCET STUDY OF 100,000 IRAQI CIVILIAN DEAD

    “The Chronicle of Higher Education today has a top-drawer article about the researchers from Johns Hopkins and Columbia Universities  who published the study in the British medical journal The Lancet suggesting there were 100,000 Iraqi civilian dead from the war and the occupation. Lila Guterman, the article’s author, notes that, “On the eve of a contentious presidential election — fought in part over U.S. policy on Iraq — many American newspapers and television news programs ignored the study or buried reports about it far from the top headlines.”

    The Chronicle article recounts in detail the methdology used for the study’s 8000 interviews, in which 30 homes in each of 33 neighborhoods all over Iraq were visited. And other statisticins confirm the validity of the Lancet study’s methdology: “Scientists say the size of the survey was adequate for extrapolation to the entire country. ‘That’s a classical sample size,’ says Michael J. Toole, head of the Center for International Health at the Burnet Institute, an Australian research organization. Researchers typically conduct surveys in 30 neighborhoods, so the Iraq study’s total of 33 strengthens its conclusions. ‘I just don’t see any evidence of significant exaggeration,’ he says.”

    “The first scientific study of the human cost of the Iraq war suggests that at least 100,000 Iraqis have lost their lives since their country was invaded in March 2003.

    “More than half of those who died were women and children killed in air strikes, researchers say. Previous estimates have put the Iraqi death toll at around 10,000 – ten times the 1,000 members of the British, American and multi-national forces who have died so far. But the study, published in The Lancet, suggested that Iraqi casualties could be as much as 100 times the coalition losses. It was also savagely critical of the failure by coalition forces to count Iraqi casualties.”

      MC

  20. Mike, first of all that was quite the speech. I know our government is by far not perfect. But as you know the Vietnam war was brought full scale by Democrats, not Republicans. So your side is far from perfect too.
    My problem with your speech is it leads people to believe that you hate this country. You of course will say the opposite as will Sir Robin, but you refuse to say one good thing about her.
    We are the most generous country in the fucking world. We give when we can’t afford to. Even our goddamn enemys get aid from us. So why do you preach such hatred towards your own people? 
    I know you will say Bush lied….Bush started a war that was unnecessary….but at least he had the fucking back bone to at least try to do something about terrorism. At least he made an attempt to show the world that we are not made up of a bunch of pacifists that turn a deaf ear to fuckers with turbins on their heads trying to destroy us. You know if given the chance that every one of those bastards would kill you in a heartbeat if they had half a chance. Along with your wife, kids, parents, etc.
    My point is this, Bush isn’t the president’s president, but at least he has the stones to stand up to the pricks hiding in shadows waiting to kidnap and cut the head off another innocent civilian in the name of fucking Allah.

  21. Collins sounds like he hates this country for the simple reason that he DOES hate this country.  He can cut and paste all the anti-American doggerel he wants, it doesn’t change the fact that he hates America with every fiber of his being.

  22. Hmm…  Gecko posting how invading Iraq == fighting terrorists, and Voyageur continuing to defend his prejudicial characterization of a poster with whom he disagrees.

    Well, at least they realize they have to defend themselves against those insidious facts…

  23. The only fact in this exchange is the fact that Mike Collins hates America.  The little swine is on record calling the president of the United States a mass murderer and calling U.S. soldiers “cowards.”  If that’s the kind of hate you want to wrap yourself around, PR, it’s your funeral.  I’d like to see that scumbucket Collins look a few of my soldier friends in the eye and tell them they’re “cowards.”  I suspect it’s easier to be brave on a blog insulting military personnel than doing it to their face.

  24. You know I’m no Rhodes Scholar, probably didn’t even spell that correctly, but I’m pretty sure if you took Iran, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, etc……stuffed them in a bag, shook ’em up, and dumped them out, things would be no different than they are now. Islamic nutballs are in everyone of those countrys doing their best to think up ways to kill us and themselves.
    9/11 must seem like 100 years ago to many of you people. Not me. Or luckily our President and our brave fighting forces. They are doing their best to try and put some stability in a region run by lunatics.
    And you call them down. It is because of soldiers like them, and presidents like him, that you have the right and ability to spout your negativity. There is no class book for the President. No college course for him in the proper, politically correct way of dealing with psycotics.
    I am really getting tired of the attitude of some of you. Same crap I heard from the hippies during the Vietnam War.
    Try supporting our leaders for once. Maybe we can do some good. Standing back screaming how everything Bush does is unjust does nothing but inspire the crazies to think up new and creative ways to hit us again.

  25. Oh and thanks Voyageur, you, Iron Mike, Go Raiders, and a couple others are the only ones that visit this site that I think really appreciate the freedoms granted us by our leaders and fighting forces, dead and alive.
    Here’s to them………….

  28. Well, just have to butt in here.
    First of all, Gecko, our freedoms are not, as you say, granted to us by our leaders. They come from the Constitution which, by the way, even our leaders are required to support and defend. I won’t get into that imbroglio, though.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, Gecko, but I believe it was you who said that had you been called (drafted) during the Viet Nam “police action” you would have gladly gone. In that same string, I noted that after I finished my degree, I volunteered for the US Army. Now, not that that wins me or anyone else any brownie points or makes me more credible than someone who had good intentions but never acted on them, I take umbrage at your apparent disgust with the “hippies” during the Viet Nam “police action” who protested the war. Why do you think the veil of incidious duplicity was lifted from that horrible adventure in Southeast Asia? And, who were these “hippies?” Eventually, your “hippies” became the majority of decent, God-fearing, Americans who saw the light, as it were.

    I was never in harm’s way during my service in the US Army (unless dodging coral snakes at Ft. Polk, Louisiana counts) but I did serve. I know the military. I love this country and I support the E2 or E3 who doesn’t have a fucking choice in the decision where he or she is sent in the world or whether they go where they are necessarily put in harm’s way. That’s the point of the military. You do what you’re told; you go where you’re needed.

    Now, I used the words incidious duplicity with regard to Viet Nam. Suffice it to say, I apply the same words to the Iraq disaster which, by the way, Dubya did compound with his macho, small man’s jingoistic bullshit, “Bring ’em on.” I do not believe anyone would disagree the so-called “insurgents” are much stronger and more lethal today than they were six months, a year ago or even when our great leader declared “Mission Accomplished.”

    Finally, am I wrong in feeling some quite intense disgust, anger, angst with the media frenzy over the Bob Woodruff incident in Iraq rather than the day after day after day deaths and maiming of those E2s and E3s I was talking about earlier? Isn’t their sacrifice in this horrible conflict just as newsworthy? Shouldn’t each and every death or maiming of each and every E2 and E3 capture as much media attention as that given to Woodruff?

  29. Y’all are hopeless on this topic.  Completely unwilling to seperate party prejudices from the comments people are actually making and completely uncaring about anyone beyond your immediate perceptions.

    Gecko’s comments in particular are just marvelous examples of how far downhill we’ve gone from “give me liberty, or give me death!”  That you have no idea of the differences between Palestine, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia is shameful for someone who pretends to know what’s best for the situation.  That you claim the President is still involved in the “war on terror” is a joke – he claims he doesn’t think about Osama or pay much attention to the matter; he’s never once attended, or had his Vice President attend, a military funeral.

    And to re-iterate what George said, but less kindly: do you really think our freedoms come by grant from our leaders?  Yah, okay…

    Maybe I’m wrong in my perceptions here, but it seems to many of us folk thinking we could be doing better that the President has become a surrogate divine oracle to his supporters, rather than the elected official we called him to be.

  30. In a Paul Craig Roberts article, “Blind Ignorance” there is a quote, Roberts says, “What does it say for democracy that half of the American population is unable to draw a rational conclusion from unambiguous facts?

    My Answer:
    What does that say about the majority in the senate and house? Regarding the filibuster on Alito, remember that Wyoming and other red state podunks have two senators, don’t have time right now to explain this irrational inequality, but it certainly would justify any filibuster by 40 agreeable senators, who just happen to represent a majority of population and seemingly rational and more intelligent people.  mc

  31. I have read the last three threads 3 or 4 times and still don’t understand what any of you are saying. If you are using big words to try and make yourself look smarter than me, don’t bother. I’m not impressed. Big words don’t make the man (or woman). Ride a Harley next to me at 100mph at night with your sunglasses on, and I’ll be impressed.
    I’m fairly sure your points are that I have Blind Faith (great band by the way) in our leaders. To some extent I do. We need to, to some degree. A lot more shit is going on in this world than any of you are even aware of. I’m sure the President and his people have bucket loads of information that if you knew about, you might not be so hard pressed to clean house.
    It is much easier to be an armchair quarterback than to jump in the game and take charge.
    And if I’m proved wrong, so be it. When the Democrats get in power, the fairy dust will fly, the sick will be healed, the poor will have the rich people’s money, and eveyone will have affordable health insurance.
    I must be on the wrong team……………

  32. No, you’re not that dumb, Gecko. And, riding a Harley at night at 100mph with your sunglasses on is just plain stupid.

    You got a dictionary? Well, use it!

    And, there you go again: Dems v. Repubs. That ain’t the game, partner. It would be real cool if you could just wriggle youself out of that black leather, Harley whining, wind-whipping cocoon you’ve encased yourself in and begin to understand that life just ain’t black and white; life ain’t Dubya vs. the Fairies. Life is a whole lot of things, including intellectual discourse that is grounded on facts, not Brando or James Dean movies (both of whom were probably queer, by the way!).

  38. George,
    The Dems vs Reps have been pounded at me by almost every liberal in this place since I started paying attention. I never really paid a whole lot of attention to party lines in the years past. Always just voted for whom I thought would not raise taxes the most, who had his head on straight, or if nothing else, the lesser of two evils.
    But if you stand back and watch, damn near eveyone here is either left or right. I decided that since I have always been for smaller government, less taxes, making the lazy work, and everyone paying for their own goddamn medical insurance, that I guess I am a die hard conservative Republican.
    Go my team….screw your team….
    And 100 at night is a little scary, but shit, life is way too short to sit back and hide inside.

  39. Gecko I am for small government and fiscal conservancy too.  Ironically these are some of the reasons for which I reject the new Republican Party.  As you can see by today?s post on ref. C, in general the R?s are not overly concerned about either of these issues.

  42. Well now hang on Gecko… I hear everyone gets a free microwave oven when they come out. If you are openly gay for a day I’m sure that’s good for a toaster.

    Just make sure you get the kind that does bagels.

  44. See that makes sense… Lexus (or is it Lexi) are so gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

    So for being openly gay for a day, Gecko could get… what, like a Yamaha motorcycle?

    I don’t know Gecko, the pot keeps getting sweeter there buddy. You might want to search for your inner-Interior Decorator and give batting for the other team a thought.

  48. Not quite what I was going for buddy.

    You know, I did watch the trailer for Brokeback Mountain… Does that count for something? I mean that has to be worth an RC car at least.

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