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April 06, 2007 05:27 PM UTC
39 Comments
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If the school even knew what they were doing. Sure, right now they have the “right” to do what they did, but it was very poor taste. I think these kids knew exactly what they were doing and trying to make a scene.
Case in point, I can probably guess the results of their “experiment”
Confederate Flag-little or no response, possibly cheers from minorities
UK Flag-little or no response
French Flag-Cheers or confusion (due to lack of recognition)
US Flag-lots of pissed off conservatives, veterns, old people, and maybe a few liberals.
because there is always the risk that someone would react violently. Teachers who assign such projects always require that they are okayed first, and are very sensitive to any possibility of danger to the kids, for their own sake (the teacher’s) if for no other reason.
It’s been a while. Glad to see you post again.
I’ll keep scanning the blog, and checking in from time to time, and will probably indulge in future spurts of activity, but other demands on my time don’t permit me to sustain the level of activity I had established in the last few weeks. But I appreciate the sentiment!
It is an icon. The degree of attachment one has to an icon is chosen. It’s like a cuss word. Every “bad” word is “bad” because we have deemed it so. It is just a word.
I used to be a good Boy Scount and ROTC slave, but over the years I’ve come to realize that waving the flag and the expected emotions are rather Pavlovian. The Pledge of Allegiance further muddies the waters because one pledges allegiance to a flag, not a nation or the constitution. (Written, BTW, by a socialist teacher. How ironic.)
The oath of military service says that he or she will defend the constitution of the United States, not the flag. Quite different.
Now, presuming one could burn the constitution, now that I would be pissed off at! Although secular, there is a spiritual component to it, and the Declaration.
Sure, it’s just a flag but to some people, but flags represent something deeper than that. If it were that simple, then there wouldn’t be any objections to flying the Nazi or Confederate flags. People have issues with that, but are they wrong? I don’t think so.
Likewise, a veteran has agreed to defend the constitution and to them the flag represents that. I’m sure you understand that. We pledge alligance to the flag because it represents our constitution. When we loose a battle, that’s symbolized when our flag goes down. That’s why it’s burned in other countries.
And I hope to God that no one ever gets the idea to burn (copies or otherwise) the constitution.
These kids who say this is a bunch of bull really have a lot of growing up left to do, in my opinion.
“But to some people, but flags represent something deeper than that.”
To the people, not by its substance.
The “Bunch of bull” comment, BTW, was made by the vet. And of course, they picked one sitting in a veteran’s organization. I’ve been in many of them many times for one reason or another, and what strikes me is that they are pathetic. Not for their service, but for hanging onto their service as the significant event of their lives. Smoking until last July, and drinking away beautiful days. But that’s just my radical opinion, I’ll grant ya.
BTW, I’ve noticed that the flag wavers are often the ones that desecrate their flags. They leave them out in the weather until they look like they might have been flying over the Iranian embassy as an insult. On cars, on poles. I get disgusted for the sheer hypocrisy of the owners.
You’re right, I got the names of the people involved confused. Thanks for setting me straight on that part.
I agree-I can appreciate someone’s patriotism that inspires them to attach a flag to their pick up truck and drive around, but that’s not my bag.
I wasn’t aware that you couldn’t fly the flag in bad weather. I thought that you could fly it if it was lit. Correct me if I’m wrong….
As for the vets, I can’t say. I’m a army brat, but never been in the service. I have no real right to comment on that aspect.
the argument in favor of banning flag burning. The matter seems quite simple. Even if flag burning is intended to be offensive, how is that expression not protected by the First Amendment? Why should it NOT be protected? It seems to me that once anyone starts offering limitations on what should be allowed or banned based on taste or offensiveness, then that opens the floodgates to all manner of prohibition, which is exactly what the Constitution was shaped to avoid.
Yes, the flag is a symbol of something greater than itself, as is every other symbol, including the swastika, the ankh, the cross, etc. If we ban flag burning, that would be tantamount to banning a verbal statement like “The United States should not have invaded Iraq,” or “The United States is immoral because of its economic globalization policies in Latin America,” or the like. It essentially prohibits protest and dissent.
To me it seems like a non-issue.
“Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.”
I am against flag burning. I think public displays of “offensive flag burning” (something other than burning a desicrated flag) is wrong and shouldn’t be done. I think that it is on the same plane as “fighting words” (a phrase coined by the supreme court to limit speech that is intended to instigate a physical altercation).
However, should it be illegal? I don’t know. I haven’t heard a compelling arguement other than “it pisses people off and it’s offensive”. From a legal standpoint, that doesn’t hold a lot of water. I think that a constitutional ban on flag burning isn’t an issue we should be speading a lot of time on.
Having said that, I think that anyone who burns an American flag in certain places (like in front of a bunch of veterans) or flys an offensive flag (such as the Nazi flag) should be prepared when people react negetively, if not violently. Again, it can be considered “fighting words”. Free speech should still be respectful speech, we shouldn’t forget that either.
If I am convinced at some point that it is a valid issue, I will do my best to explain why.
with your sentiment about it essentially being a provocative, often stupid, act. Especially depending on the location and circumstances, as you note. I was mainly reacting to the sentiment (absent in this thread, for the most part) that flag burning itself should be made illegal.
I disagree with you about it being on “the same plane as ‘fighting words,'” though. Why would the burning have to be offensive? Why could it not simply be taken as a protest against policies of, for example, the current administration? The Bush administration’s lax attitude toward constitutional restrictions on executive power would be a perfectly normal thing to protest, and if a person decides that’s how they want to express themselves, then that doesn’t have to be intended or interpreted as “fighting words.”
That having been said, I would also say “fighting words” would be if a protester said to you (you being a veteran), “fuck you, you baby killer” or something like that. For that, yeah, sure, go ahead and knock his teeth out if you want.
Otherwise, I can’t see it.
And I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I just like the discussion.
Between posts. Busy weekend, ya know.
I don’t think that flag burning has to be offensive, but to a lot of people, it is. I disagree that flag burning shouldn’t be offensive-that’s the whole point of flag burning. If you honestly want to protest something, then do marches, sit ins, boycotts, etc. For goodness sakes, can you imagine how people would have reacted to the civil rights movement if MLK had burned flags???? We might still have seperate bathrooms.
If you’re going to protest something, protest it. Don’t burn the flag. It is highly offensive and does your cause little to no good. I don’t completely understand why it’s as offensive either, but I don’t think that you should say that people just shouldn’t be offended by it. As long as people love their country, and associate the flag with their country, people are going to get pissed when you do it.
Hopefully I’ve kept up with the discussional tone we’ve had in this thread so far!
It was an experiment. Rather on the edge, I’ll grant ya, but not a cause.
Way back when I was a kid, there were very strong protocols about the flag. Most of what I will say is from my Boy Scout years. You could only fly it during daylight hours, you could not in inclemet weather. When a flag was worn, it had to be BURNED, yes, do you all get that, in a ceremony.
At camp, early sixties, there was a flag raising and lowering ceremony every day. Color guard!
Best as I recall, it was in the 80’s (Reagan years ????Z) when many of these standards were relaxed. Our flag could fly 24/7, in any situation, for any length of time.
Anyone else want to weigh in?
is that the flags used to wear out easily and so it was to preserve them. With synthetic fibers they last forever now and so it is fine to fly them 24/7.
However, I think it was just plain old honor and tradition. And as we can all observe, even the sythetics have their end of life.
sometimes you have to burn the flag to save it
Gee, when I was a kid, we used to try to give away quarters in New York City just to see people scurry away like we were crazy…
I remember Andy Rooney doing an experiment to see what coin could be on the sidewalk and people would pick up. As I recall, pennies were ignored, dimes and up almost always got claimed, nickels were iffy.
…all those who’ve wasting time trying to push anti-flag burning amendments, including Hillary, now have at least one actual flag-burning to point to. I guess this raises the average citizen’s chance of actually SEEING a flag burning, while walking down the street, to maybe a fraction of the chance of getting hit by lightning. Last time I checked we all still had the right to behave like morons. just look at the White House.
Flag desecration is not limited to burning or stomping on it. It includes torture while under it in Gitmo, stripping away constitutional rights while under it in the WH and the capitol, etc.
Now, THOSE get me pissed off!
was pushed onto them by their liberal teacher.
Those kids are real lucky some veteran didn’t clean their dumbass clocks. Now that would be newsworthy.
to check before making a dumb ass remark like the flag burning “…was pushed onto them by their liberal teacher”. According to the GJ Sentinel, the teacher didn’t know the kids were going to burn flags.
http://www.gjsentine…
Notice the placement of the commas: The question is, what causes a correlation between those two categories? You find an even stronger correlation in higher education. Any jack ass can get a ph.d., so why are so many of those who get one liberals?
Personally, I’d prefer answers that strive for logical integrity rather than “witty” but meaningless pot-shots, but I know better than to get my hopes up….
And no sane teacher would have okayed, much less assigned, this specific project, not because it offends your stunted sensibilities, but because, as you pointed it, it poses a danger to the students.
Notice the immediate conclusion that “Libruls Hate America!”
Never mind the fact that there are “libruls” fighting and dying in Iraq right now, while Mr. Conservative here is sitting on his fat butt blogging.
It’s part of what makes America great, and allows so many Americans to be so damn annoying.
It’s the last time in your life you can do really stupid things and learn from them. Assuming the school district handles this well (which is unlikely as they are a school district), this could be a really good learning experience all around.
– dave
C anyone who worked for the Bush campaign say the same?
I find wearing a US flag shirt repulsive, see it done a lot at Republican gatherings. I don’t even like it as a patch on the back of the jacket. Burning is the prescribed method for getting rid of a worn out flag. Hate to see a worn out flag flying, now that really upsets me. I am glad that my flag is the prettiest flag of all and I have never seen it burned in person, fairly rare occurance. Best quote I ever saw regarding jingoism:
“To be a patriot, one had to say and keep on saying, my country right or wrong and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that is an insult to the nation.” Mark Twain 1906
You know I have no problem with someone burning a flag, it is their choice and it is a free country.
However, it does nothing but turn people against whatever it is you are trying to say. If you really want someone to hate you and dismiss any legitimate concerns that you may have, burning a flag is the number one way to do that.
I know that this was not connected with a protest, but it is still an act that does nothing but give the Right fodder for their “Liberals hate America” bullshit.
Nothing says “I hate America” more than burning a US flag. It really doesn’t reflect well on one’s character or cause.
Nothing says “I hate America” more than violating someone’s constitutional rights.
Could easily be libertarians. Or just some kids with poor judgement or who have some major personal issues.
It’s just a highly unethical experiment… people who participate ought to be informed of the experiment and consent. Otherwise, you’re going to give poor Ken Lergent an ulcer.
To observe a reaction? Inform them? Doesn’t that give away the experiment?
No one is harmed in any way. Why unethical?