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November 01, 2005 09:00 AM UTC

Early Signs Point To C

  • 76 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

Could still change, but enough to record for posterity.

Voters were giving the nod to Referendum C early Tuesday, a controversial statewide measure that would allow Colorado to bypass tax and spending limits.

With about one-third of precincts reporting, Referendum C was leading by about 20,000 votes. A companion measure, Referendum D, was far closer, leading only by about 400 votes.

File this with other such anecdotes for the moment, but cheer/jeer as you like…

Update: Referendum D now pulling ahead as well.
AM Update: No it isn’t.

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76 thoughts on “Early Signs Point To C”

  3. Awfull tight…….luck will probably be with the California liberal yuppie transplants  though. Too bad. I was hoping we wouldn’t go in debt for the next 20 years just to make it easier for the politicians. Sure would be nice if I didn’t have to balance my personal budget‘; return true;” onmouseout=”window.status=”; return true;”>personal budget.

  8. C looks like a winner, D may sqeak in, too close to call.  To answer KJevins question as to what republicans will do … we’ll REJOICE.  The good Republicans, Owens, Hank Brown, Norma Anderson, 19 legislators in all, bruce benson, joe blake,  ..this is a victory for Colorado and those Republicans who put Colorado first.  And a crushing defeat for Holtzman, Caldara, Bruce and the Trash Colorado crowd.  Republicans and our friends on the Democratic side who worked theikr hearts out, we salute you.

  9. The Denver Post’s county by county numbers are funky for El Paso County.  It shows far too few total votes, yet almost all precincts counted.  Still, given the relatively strong showing of C in places like Douglas and JeffCo and Arapahoe Counties, as well as many rural counties (such as hard core Republican Washington County) I’m pretty comfortable that C will pass and even have some hope for my relatively optimistic office poll guess.

  10. How sweet is this, C WINS.

    Thank you, people of Colorado, to vote to assist people less fortunate then you.  This is a vote to assist others, for caring, for the poor, the elderly, the disabled.  Poeple do have a heart.  I am dancing from joy!

    YES!

  11. Voyageur-
    I like how now you don’t loop Beauprez in with the No on C and D crowd….

    I thought he was against it and was fighting it too?

    I guess it really rings true, you can’t have it both ways bob!

  12. This is a great moment for Colorado, the fulfillment of 2004’s mandate. You didn’t let us down.

    There appear to be a number of people who sensibly recognized the need for C, but were less convinced about the need to D’s borrowing. I don’t have to love that, but I can love the people of this great state as a whole, who I at least now know can be reasoned with.

    After a good night’s sleep, I’ll be sure to give Jon Caldara, Footnote his proper treatment.

  17. Where all all the haters of the past days?  It is nice and peaceful on here.  Where are all those NO supporters now?  In their caves?  Victory is so sweet.  I can’t wait for 2006 and 2008. 

    Thank you COLORADO!

  18. Sorry, we’re stuck with Caldera, Dobson, Bruce, and others.  Just like we’re stuck with some from the Loopy Left.  If you ever want a microcosm of the people of this nation, Colorado’s your state; we’ve got your Penitentes and your Ashrams, your Corporatists and your Greens, your moral supremacists and your radical hippies.  I can’t call it a melting pot, since some of the ingredients can’t (or won’t) be combined, but it’s certainly varied, and we’re all better for it, though some days we’re not so sure…

  20. El Paso is coming in late because of ballot problems they had.  C is losing fairly narrowly there, as supporters had predicted.  D is winning comfortably and the winning margin in El Paso should be enough to pull D to victory also.  Mesa likewise crushed C and loved D.  So you no on C yes on D voters, thank you.  You made the difference for our highways.

  21. On the Wednesday open thread, let’s have a contest for the best conspiracy theory as to why the dead guvs floated that phony C and D going down story.  To sabotage which side?  Only true conspiracy theorists can enter.

  22. Well, I hate to admit it, but it looks like c and d will pass. 

    Sure wish Beauprez would have fought against it.

    Words are cheap and that’s all he really provided, let’s all hope that’s not an indication of his leadership abilites, but I fear it is. 

    I can tell you that MH’s folks visited not only my home, but my inlaws and my parents homes as well in Colorado Springs. 

    That seems like leadership to me.

    I’ll say this, I’d urge the folks in the capitol to use this money wisely, we’ll be watching you with a magnifying glass for the next year. 

    Ya beat us, you got our money, now earn it.  If you don’t then we’ll see you soon:)

  24. Speak for yourself Doh!

    I gave them my money and in return I’m getting a future–like most people my age in this state.
    I think it’s a pretty good deal.

  25. While anti-Colorado jokers like Donald E. L. Johnson whined non-stop here (fine with me since everyone here was decided long ago), we kicked some serious ass here in Arapahoe County! 

    My heartfelt thanks go out to the House District Chairs and Precicnt Captains who did SO MUCH hard work walking precincts and making personal phone calls right up until 6pm today.  They are the unsung heroes of this campaign.  We (Arapahoe County) had serious doubts about how the C&D campaign was being run, and took it on ourselves to get the word out.  It paid off!

  26. Voyageur, you are a pathetic shill for the liberal republicans and you can’t see past the nose on your face.  How can you say we R’s should rejoice when the turnout shows that the election was won by overwhelming yes votes in Boulder, Denver, and other Democrat counties?  Your cronies helped fund Democratic turnout, Dem voter I.D., and the Democratic party machinery in their best counties.  I’m sure that will do nothing but hurt statewide republican races next year.  Congratulations Governor Owens, and his alter-ego Voyageur, you have handed the keys to the state over to the Dems.

  32. emrosa,

    am i to assume that you had no future without a tax increase?

    if this is so, you may be the perfect poster child for my “Literacy Test” initiative. 

    if not, then CUBA gets the job.

  34. The Plumber:

    Let’s say, more of a prospective future, now that more money will go to services that I personally need. Education, health care, roads…etc.

    It may be hard for old people to understand, but for a young person who is struggling to go to school and working at the same time, this “tax increase” is a god send. I can’t pay my tuition with puny refund. Sorry. Selfishness is a virtue, right?

    And I’ll dismiss that ad homonym logical fallacy–I can understand that you’re upset tonight. 😉

  43. WTF!  The Denver Post just updated their El Paso results, with 100% of El Paso reporting: C failed 47.7 to 53.3, but D PASSED 57.3 to 42.7.  If D wins tonight, I’d like to thank Hugo, Raiders, and all the other “No on C, Yes on D.  For the Children!” supporters out there.

  45. emrosa,

    i’m sure subsidizing the education industry further will make it more affordable.  why can’t you afford your tuition?  because we subsidize the industry!  why can’t you afford healthcare?  because we subdize the industry!

    btw, i expected the vote to go the way it did,  though i expected it to win by a larger margin.  three or four percent over fifty is a rather shallow victory.

    owens may have won this battle, but he was thoroughly repudiated by his base.  if he’d decided to be a conservative, C&D would have been toast.  conservatives have no use for owens.

  46. emrosa,  do you know what ad hominem means? 

    you are the one who claimed to have no future without a tax increase. I simply responded to what you claimed.  hardly ad hominem.  your statements, then and now, are foolish. 

    you got what you want, hopefully this will satisfy your thirst for other peoples’ money for a little while (my guess?  about six months).

  47. Wow.  I didn’t know that subsidizing an industry made it unaffordable!  With logic like that, I suppose I could sell you a bridge; the cost of ownership is significantly lower because you have to pay taxes on it every year.

  48. phoenix,

    i thought you were smarter than that.  i’ll freely admit to being a blue-collar schlub, but even i know that subsidizing an industry creates monopolies.  any first-year econ student knows that the characteristics of a monopoly is high cost and crappy service.  sounds like health care to me.

    but i may be wrong and you may be right.  let’s throw them some more money and see if costs go down and quality goes up.  we know it has worked for K12.

  50. The Plumber:

    From the dictionary.com:

    ad hominem:
    “Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.”

    You said:
    ?you may be the perfect poster child for my ?Literacy Test? initiative?

    Therefore, you were not addressing what I said, but insulting my personal intelligence. That?s ad hominem, a logical fallacy?and it has nothing to do with my argument.

    Now, let?s talk about your argument. How would you say that subsidizing education makes it more expensive? What kind of education do you mean? What would be your solution, make institutions privatized? You just say that it is, you don?t say how. I would like to hear the logic behind that.

    Glad to hear you?re not too disappointed, but calling Owens a non-conservative makes me wonder?what would you define as a conservative? Is it among partisan lines? Spending? What?

    If I?m going to argue rationally with you, I?d like to know what your definitions of such subjective terms are.

    As far as the C victory goes, I think a win is still a win. That?s how it always is in politics, and few things we do will change the outcome. There?s no need to whine about it, though.
    (This applies to both parties.)

    Now about ?thirst? for other peoples money. (I guess I?m a vampire now.) I say, what?s wrong with that? A good business man yearns to separate people from their money and maximize profit to himself. Are you saying that selfishness is wrong?
      😉

  51. Looking at a couple of these posts, it’s clear Holtzman didn’t care either way. The only reason he said a word about C&D was so he could attack Beauprez. Cheap political opportunism (ineffective at that) is going to be how people remember his shortlived campaign…

  52. Never knew how right Greg Stevinson was until this morning. Jon Caldara screwed us all with his dishonest antics. He gave the lefties this victory on a plate!

    I will NEVER donate to the Independence Institute again.

  53. Good morning,
    Congratulations to Jill Conrad for squeaking out a win for Denver School Board! And to Larry Beer for his Aurora City Council win!

    Oh and Sheila McDonald….YOU ROCK!!!!!

    Well it looks like C has passed and D didn’t. There will likley be a recount on D but I have no illusions that the recount will change anything.
    My predictions held up fairly well, I was wrong on D and Denver’s pot initiative, but got the rest of the outcomes right, if a little off on the percentages.

    With 96% reporting C has already passed my Office Poll number so I think I out of the running there.

    The real story (in Denver at least) was the turnout. I am an election judge and we saw turnout numbers at the polls higher than we usually do for Governor’s elections and almost as much as we get for Presidential ones. And it was clear from the results that it was the C&D campaign who was getting those numbers out (passed 5-1 in the precinct I worked). Very effective GOTV!!!!

  54. emrosa,  i stand by what i said.

    also, the difference between your desire to take my money and the businessman’s is that the businessman gets my money by my choice.  you get my money by the point of a gun.  i promise you, if it were not for the threat of imprisonment, and the auctioning-off of my meager possessions, you wouldn’t get a dime of my money. 

    what do you call someone who takes something from another without permission or voluntary compliance? 

    i call that person a thief or parasite.  you can use which ever ad hominem label you want.

  56. Guess a lying Governor, and mega big business money does get you an election in the bag.

    Remember to also thank your friends who own small businesses, they gave up their personal property tax refunds so you can afford a liberal arts degree. 5 years x $300 = $2500

  58. Red, looks like your math is a funky in more ways than one.  Have you been up all night at that party for 100?

    Here’s the real cost for a typical Colorado Family:
    “The nonpartisan Legislative Council says it is $491 over five years”

    Good luck on the numbers game, it’s kind of a moot point now though.

    The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose.

  59. Congratulations State of Colorado! The passage of C was critical to the health and progress this state needs. Now, if only the “It’s your Dough” crowd would just turn their attention to the war profiteers and take back the bloated defense budget!

  60. anyone listen to the whine fest on Peter Boyles this morning?

    The Dems swept into the state house with a mandate to fix the budget problems and they have. Bring on ’06

    btw – I didn’t get to watch much news coverage last night, did Stengel flip back and show up next to Owens and Romanoff at the victory party?

  61. Math,
    Obviously you don’t understand. Take 3.7 billion and divide it by 3 million taxpayers. The $491 was only for the sales tax refund portion, I assume you didn’t read the blue book entirely. This year on top of forfeiting the sales tax refund we also gave up the Colo. Earned Income Credit worth x amount of dollars and businesses lost their property tax refunds because C won.
    http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/govnr_dir/ ospb/specialreports/taborrefundmechanisms_2005.pdf There’s a link so you can figure it out.

  62. The Plumber:
    In other words, you don’t want to have a rational argument and back up your claims. (Or at least explain the logic behind them.) Hey, it is Colorado Pols after all! 🙂

    And really man, it’s indeed a naive idea to think that all business men take your money by your choice. (I?m sorry you didn?t realize the initial snark behind my ?selfish? statements.?)

    And another question: what would you call this election if not a chance for the people to voice their decision on this “tax increase”? I can’t stand Bruce, but I got to hand it to him–I do think people should decide what the government does with their taxes.

    Are you angry at democracy?

  63. Math,
    Since you’re oblivious, let me further explain to you.
    Every business out there pays personal property tax. TABOR would refund each business their property tax up to $700, then 16% of the amount above that.

  65. From the Blue Book:

    “Taxpayers are expected to receive a total of between $350 and $1,021 over the next five years, or an average of $491, in sales tax refunds. Figure 2 shows the estimated sales tax refund for a taxpayer in the highest and lowest income levels, and the average sales tax refund for all taxpayers from 2007 through 2011.

    The total refund a taxpayer receives is the sales tax refund plus any of the other refund methods for which a taxpayer qualifies. Not all refund methods are available every year; the methods available depend on the amount of money being refunded. While the sales tax refund was distributed to almost 2.8 million taxpayers in 2001, most of the other 15 methods were distributed to a much smaller number of taxpayers. The Referendum C Appendix contains more information on the refund methods.”

    So there you have it.  The average taxpayer only gets the sales tax refund protion, so they only stand to “loose” $491, which, of course, will be spent on improvements that will save us all money and make Colorado a better place to live.

    Worth every dime.

  66. Math,
    Your point must be that business owners aren’t the average taxpayer. That’s right, we actually invest more in Colorado than the “average taxpayer”. This still doesn’t change 3.7 billion divided by 3 million taxpayers. It doesn’t change that I’m a self employed business owner who just lost $2500 or more for the next five years, plus my sales tax refunds.

  67. EMROSA, if you think The Plumber gets personal, wait until Iron Mike starts calling you a commie, a faggot, and the rest of his dictionary of defamation.  The best thing to do with The Plumber is pour a can of drano down his throat while you’re flushed with success from C’s win.

  68. At least the California transplants didn’t get D to win……….Going in debt that takes years to pay is stupid. But on the other hand now the cry babies can use the fact that it lost to push for even bigger tax increases in ’06.
    In the Gazette today we were told that Hewlett Packard was laying off hundreds of people. I wonder how they feel about their TABOR refunds falling in to the bottomless pit in Denver now?

  69. Red, you’re just not thinking clearly I?m afraid.  You?ve lost no money at all; you?ve just made a wise investment in the state that serves your company so well.

    Do you ever hire anyone?  Would you rather hire smart local people or make the choice between hiring from other states (and paying a lot more to recruit them btw), or settling for undereducated workers from this state?

    How about roads?  Most businesses depend on them.  In all likelihood you?ll spend less on your vehicles if you aren?t running over huge potholes all the time.

    Really, it seems like an easy decision for a business person to make.  C was an investment in Colorado, and a smart one.

  70. If you’re blaming C’s passage on California transplants, Geeko, I guess the biggest share of the blame falls on Douglas Bruce.  He’s a California transplant.  And in a curious way, you’re right.  Bruce’s loutish and reckless behaviour did contribute to C’s passage.

  72. emrosa,

    i think anybody who espouses coercion as a means of achieving political or social goals is as evil as the coercion itself.  the marijuana issue went the right way.  the folks down in denver made a symbolic vote to reduce coercion. 

    pissed at democracy?  you bet.  i think the masses are asses and cannot be trusted to rule wisely.  the passage of yet another tax increase is a perfect example.  your glee make you the perfect candidate for a literacy test.  nothing personal.

    any guesses on how long before you jam your gun (rather than draino) down my throat and demand more of the fruits of my labor?  i’ll bet that by the end of 2007, the thieves and parasites will be attacking my wallet again. if thieves and parasites didn’t think of the children and elderly, who would?

  73. emrosa,

    i think anybody who espouses coercion as a means of achieving political or social goals is as evil as the coercion itself.  the marijuana issue went the right way.  the folks down in denver made a symbolic vote to reduce coercion. 

    pissed at democracy?  you bet.  i think the masses are asses and cannot be trusted to rule wisely.  the passage of yet another tax increase is a perfect example.  your glee make you the perfect candidate for a literacy test.  nothing personal.

    any guesses on how long before you jam your gun (rather than draino) down my throat and demand more of the fruits of my labor?  i’ll bet that by the end of 2007, the thieves and parasites will be attacking my wallet again. if thieves and parasites didn’t think of the children and elderly, who would?

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